Undertale

Wasn't @SuperJaws100 making a Cave Story x UnderTale mod?

 

Wasn't @SuperJaws100 making a Cave Story x UnderTale mod?

As soon as I saw what the rest of the Undertale fandom was mostly like my hype for the game fell fast. So no.

Spoiler: My Live Reaction to the Undertale Fandom

Me: "UNDERTALE IS SO COOL!"
Fandom: "Oh my gawsh have you read Under-nintendo-cave-mario-hentai-chocolate-super-fallen-skyrim-tale?"
Me: "Under - what?"
Fandom: "It's this AU where Sans is Ness and Frisk has ALS and has to overcome her yaoi addiction with..."
Me: *backs away slowly*

 

The game itself is VERY well done though. It just have some problems with how easy it is for some people and how insanely hard it is for others.

I don't see how this is a "problem", actually. After all, it wouldn't exactly be fair to compare your experience of beating Sans eight times to a casual player facing off Sans for the first time. The battle looks like it throws a lot that would definitely make it look hard if you don't know what is going to come next. But if you memorise the patterns and you're prepared for what's to come next, then of course you would have an easier time facing the boss. I see you address that Sans took you a while to beat later in your quote, but that isn't the game's problem that you beat him tons of times and other players, who could possibly be facing him for the first time, are finding him to be extremely difficult.

I guess my whole issue with parts of the fandom started when I saw people trying to push for Undertale to be "Game of the Year" because of "representation" and nothing really about aspects of the game itself. Then also the whole thing where Tumblr of course started getting upset at people calling the genocide run a genocide run, making a claim that Toby said that himself without even providing proof? Granted, I haven't *really* delved into the Undertale fandom, but there are certainly some crazy, more vocal individuals of that fandom out there. That's kind of hard considering how many people find Undertale very appealing.

 

To be honest, even the music is still not as good as a full orchestra. The Ace Combat soundtrack, specifically Ace Combat 04 and 5's soundtrack (the latter of which took nearly a decade to put together), is still probably the best soundtrack I've ever heard with Skyrim coming in as a distant second. Keiki Kobayashi is probably one of the most talented composers of our time, and he gets little to no recognition.

 

Someone needs to take my keyboard away.

Spoiler: To address Random-storykeeper

I guess my whole issue with parts of the fandom started when I saw people trying to push for Undertale to be "Game of the Year" because of "representation" and nothing really about aspects of the game itself.

While I've never heard of the situation around UT's GOTY nomination, I certainly agree with you. Somewhat. While I think that representation is important in media, (especially in interactive media such as video games) and the way UT handles representation is very good and not preachy or just representation for the sake of representation, pushing for its GOTY status based purely on this is somewhat silly and self-interested. Especially when it has so much more going for it in addition to the representation aspect.

The way it handles how you take and receive damage is extremely innovative, and I haven't seen a video game, much less an RPG, handle damage in a skill-based way like UT does. Like, seriously, you control how much damage you do through a timing minigame, and you control how much damage you do through a pseudo-bullet hell minigame that varies from each character. Not to mention that you can pick up items or do things to influence those aspects. It's seriously smart and I'm surprised it hasn't been talked about more.

The way in which it handles and comments on enemies and fighting in the setting of an RPG by characterizing the enemies and developing relationships between the characters and a world in which they interact is also seriously innovative. Especially since the most common criticism for RPGs is grinding and needing EXP. However, UT changes this by not only making it harder to do a run in which you kill no one, but also changing the game when you do a run in which you kill everyone. I may be ignorant of games that have done this before or overstating UT's genius, but it seriously deserves more credit and the GOTY nominations it's received.

Spoiler: To address SuperJaws100

To be honest, even the music is still not as good as a full orchestra. The Ace Combat soundtrack, specifically Ace Combat 04 and 5's soundtrack (the latter of which took nearly a decade to put together), is still probably the best soundtrack I've ever heard with Skyrim coming in as a distant second. Keiki Kobayashi is probably one of the most talented composers of our time, and he gets little to no recognition.

No offense, but your comment is pretty off-topic. You started off by talking about UT, then you immediately switched to Ace Combat. I'm not undervaluing the game series at all (I've never actually played Ace Combat, but I'll take your word for it.) but I think you could have linked it back to UT somehow.

This goes without saying, doesn't it? UT was done with mainly samples, soundfonts, VSTs and Synths. Naturally, it wouldn't sound as good as a live orchestra or, at the very least a live band/ensemble. In terms of sound quality, at least. A live orchestra or real instrumentation means nothing if the composition isn't up to snuff. UT's composition is certainly up to snuff and Toby is very skilled, especially in creating memorable melodies and incorporating leitmotifs.

While music is subjective, you're essentially saying "I would have preferred it if the soundtrack was fully orchestral". You're entitled to your own opinions, of course, but I don't think UT would benefit from having a full orchestra. While I do believe that certain tracks (especially boss themes with orchestral melodies like Hopes and Dreams, A Battle against a True Hero, Heartache, etc...) would benefit from a live orchestra being incorporated in the instrumentation, I think a lot of the OST's intention and feel would be misconstrued or ruined. Also, Ace Combat is a much different game than UT and the music should reflect. Ace Combat (from what I understand) is a realistic plane simulator, UT is a pseudo 16-bit RPG that comments on and is inspired by video games. Orchestral would be preferred in some cases, and would greatly benefit dramatic and symphonic-styled tracks, but overall I think it wouldn't do the game service. At the end of the day, this is just an opinion and as was your initial statement, so I really just ranted unnecessarily.

Spoiler: To addres TheCyberSleuth

Yeah, I was drawn away from UT by the fandom too. There are some good fans, but most of them are just...*Cringes away into corner*

I never got this argument. I realize that it applies to and has been said about pretty much every fandom under the sun, but I don't get it. Not only are you letting the cancer of the vocal minority dictate how you consume the original content, but you're assuming that the vocal minority is actually the majority. Now, I know I'm probably assuming your intentions, but my points still stand. I've been on Tumblr for 4+ years, the place that is constantly slammed for being a cesspool of fandom trash and liberal snowflakes, and I have yet to see what the problem is there, as well as the overarching problem with the fandoms. Don't get me wrong, I know of all the incidents, the witch hunts, and misdirected anger that go on there, but so is the community. I digress. What I really meant to say is that most of the UT fandom, Tumblr and any fandom is positive. UT simply has a HUGE fanbase and a HUGE amount of things to gush over. Hence why the cancerous minority is so large and perceived as the majority. I rarely ever see bad content that people stereotype as the majority of Tumblr. I see more good fanart, fantheories, fanmusic, fanfiction and jokes about UT than I do people calling each other "problematic" and "bigoted" for not agreeing with their opinions and headcanons. And even when I do see the toxic content, other users have knocked them down a peg, argued their point logically or it's so insignificant that it's not even worth anyone's time. TL;DR: All fanbases have cancerous elements. Most of the UT fandom is good and produces good content. It's only problem is that UT is large as hell. Hence why the minority is perceived as the majority.[/SPOLER]

 

UT in Cave Story Miiverse Community for cod knows why? CHECKITY CHECK CHECK CHECK!

Is there an actually good miiverse community?

As for the worrisome side of the fanbase; it's pretty easy to just ignore it. It's not like they personally contact you for it all the time.
Unless you hang around at communities that are bad in the first place.

Feel free to prove me wrong though.

 

The Cave Story Miiverse one is pretty tame, apart from everyone saying it's an Undertale ripoff. It's mainly a bunch of people who've just started playing taking screenshots of Mimiga Village and marking it as spoilers. There are some better parts in Discussions. (Ex. Sharing speedrun times, making theories. It's basically a mini CSTSF but with Undertale furries saying the game is bad without playing it, and new players. I k i n d o f like it better than the CSTSF on some occasions.)

For a smaller community what did you expect? And if they're saying the game's a ripoff of undertale; they didn't do research and are better off just being ignored, even if they're persisting about it.

 

Someone needs to take my keyboard away.

Spoiler: To address SuperJaws100

No offense, but your comment is pretty off-topic. You started off by talking about UT, then you immediately switched to Ace Combat. I'm not undervaluing the game series at all (I've never actually played Ace Combat, but I'll take your word for it.) but I think you could have linked it back to UT somehow.

This goes without saying, doesn't it? UT was done with mainly samples, soundfonts, VSTs and Synths. Naturally, it wouldn't sound as good as a live orchestra or, at the very least a live band/ensemble. In terms of sound quality, at least. A live orchestra or real instrumentation means nothing if the composition isn't up to snuff. UT's composition is certainly up to snuff and Toby is very skilled, especially in creating memorable melodies and incorporating leitmotifs.

While music is subjective, you're essentially saying "I would have preferred it if the soundtrack was fully orchestral". You're entitled to your own opinions, of course, but I don't think UT would benefit from having a full orchestra. While I do believe that certain tracks (especially boss themes with orchestral melodies like Hopes and Dreams, A Battle against a True Hero, Heartache, etc...) would benefit from a live orchestra being incorporated in the instrumentation, I think a lot of the OST's intention and feel would be misconstrued or ruined. Also, Ace Combat is a much different game than UT and the music should reflect. Ace Combat (from what I understand) is a realistic plane simulator, UT is a pseudo 16-bit RPG that comments on and is inspired by video games. Orchestral would be preferred in some cases, and would greatly benefit dramatic and symphonic-styled tracks, but overall I think it wouldn't do the game service. At the end of the day, this is just an opinion and as was your initial statement, so I really just ranted unnecessarily.

Oops, did go a little off topic. I don't think that's a big deal though.

I don't think I would have preferred it to be fully orchestral, it fit very well into the game and was exceedingly good, I'm just saying that when ranking two good soundtracks together, the fact that the one is done by a real orchestra and the other is done using synthetic instruments (specifically looking at Hopes and Dreams, Snowdin, etc, which use realistic-sounding instruments) would cause me to place the real orchestra over the synthetic ones.

 

I don't think I would have preferred it to be fully orchestral, it fit very well into the game and was exceedingly good, I'm just saying that when ranking two good soundtracks together, the fact that the one is done by a real orchestra and the other is done using synthetic instruments (specifically looking at Hopes and Dreams, Snowdin, etc, which use realistic-sounding instruments) would cause me to place the real orchestra over the synthetic ones.

Are you saying the fact alone that one was done by a real full orchestra makes it inherently better than one done synthetically? Because that seems oddly shallow, IMO.

 

Are you saying the fact alone that one was done by a real full orchestra makes it inherently better than one done synthetically? Because that seems oddly shallow, IMO.

Shallow? How? I think that authentic instruments just inherently sound better. Additionally, I don't degrade the music for being synthetic, I just appreciate the talent it takes to play an instrument, because I can't. For me, hearing the instruments and thinking about how there is a completely ordinary person playing each of those instruments and how they are putting their mark on a masterpiece is fascinating and elevates the experience.

 

Shallow? How? I think that authentic instruments just inherently sound better. Additionally, I don't degrade the music for being synthetic, I just appreciate the talent it takes to play an instrument, because I can't. For me, hearing the instruments and thinking about how there is a completely ordinary person playing each of those instruments and how they are putting their mark on a masterpiece is fascinating and elevates the experience.

You do know you can make a song that's completely synthetic, and yet have it sound like it was performed by an actual orchestra, right?

 

Shallow? How? I think that authentic instruments just inherently sound better. Additionally, I don't degrade the music for being synthetic, I just appreciate the talent it takes to play an instrument, because I can't. For me, hearing the instruments and thinking about how there is a completely ordinary person playing each of those instruments and how they are putting their mark on a masterpiece is fascinating and elevates the experience.

See you've illustrated exactly why I think this line of thought is shallow. You are judging the music because it was played "by a human", and not at all based on how it sounds. You're saying "I can listen to this and feel comfort knowing a human made those sounds with their hands". And the only reason you can say this is because you know it's an "authentic" sound. It's not based at all on how the song sounds, not based at all on what you're hearing. If you weren't told it was being performed by a real orchestra you probably wouldn't even know the difference. And that's why it's shallow.

 

See you've illustrated exactly why I think this line of thought is shallow. You are judging the music because it was played "by a human", and not at all based on how it sounds. You're saying "I can listen to this and feel comfort knowing a human made those sounds with their hands". And the only reason you can say this is because you know it's an "authentic" sound. It's not based at all on how the song sounds, not based at all on what you're hearing. If you weren't told it was being performed by a real orchestra you probably wouldn't even know the difference. And that's why it's shallow.

Alright, now you're being rude. I don't appreciate you calling me "shallow" especially when you are failing to understand what I mean. I am most certainly judging the music based on how it sounds. There are full-orchestral tracks that I do not like, and there are synthetic tracks that I like better than full-orchestral tracks. I'd listen to the UNDERTALE soundtrack over Beethoven any day, even though I like Beethoven.

What I'm saying is that when I am comparing two good tracks with one another, and I have to pick a favorite out of the two, I am going to pick the "authentic" sound over the synthetic one because it is just a personal preference.

You do know you can make a song that's completely synthetic, and yet have it sound like it was performed by an actual orchestra, right?

I have yet to hear synthetic instruments in a song that I've liked that I couldn't tell to some degree were not real. If there comes a time where I can't tell that a song has synthetic instruments in it, enjoy listening to it, and then find out later that it is synthetic, that would not diminish my enjoyment of that song. And as technology advances that will become inevitable. The problem is that in UNDERTALE, the realistic instruments in songs like Hopes and Dreams are very clearly synthetic, and that very, very, very slightly detracts from my overall enjoyment of the soundtrack.

I have somewhat unfairly been only thinking of the songs in UNDERTALE with pseudo-realistic instruments. I think the UNDERTALE tracks which use synths and chiptune are some of the best if not the best chiptune soundtracks I've heard. But the mixed-media approach to creating UNDERTALE's soundtrack, where there is both realistic sounding instruments, chiptune, and synths together, while extremely refreshing and creative, forces me to sort of separate the soundtrack into different categories when I listen to it. When I listen to music, I like to listen to one genre of music at a time. I have my Pop, Rock, orchestral, etc genres of music separated in my MP3 player because I don't like it when I listen to a rock song like "Eye of the Tiger" and then it switches to something like "Poker Face". The moods of those songs are very different and I get very emotionally invested in the moods of the songs I listen to, so an abrupt shift in mood between two songs tends to bother me when I'm just listening to music by itself.

It is this fact that causes me to say that holistically, I prefer certain other soundtracks over the UNDERTALE soundtrack.

The bolded part is what especially offends me, however, because I did not imply that at all. I do not feel "comfort" because there is a human behind the instrument, I simply appreciate and immensely respect the talent that it takes to perform an instrument. I used to feel the same way about people who could create music in general. But I can do that now as well. I suck at it, but I'm getting better, and so there is less awe in it than there used to be. I used to think that music composition was something that was unattainable for me. If there ever comes a time when I am able to learn to play an instrument, perhaps the same thing will happen with real orchestral music. But for now I still highly respect and admire those who can perform an instrument, especially within an orchestra or band, because it's still something that's unattainable for me.

If synthetic instruments made me uncomfortable I wouldn't be able to compose music using ORGmaker or Pxtone. @GIRakaCHEEZER I find your treatment of my opinions very disrespectful. Just because I have had experiences different from yours and opinions different from yours does not give you the right to insult me by calling me "shallow". I could understand your reactions if I had been rude or hostile in my previous posts, but I wasn't. Either way, however, you are a moderator and should be setting an example for the community.

 

I don't appreciate you calling me "shallow" especially when you are failing to understand what I mean.

There is a huge difference between suggesting that someone's opinion is shallow versus suggesting that someone is shallow. GIR never called you "shallow".

I am most certainly judging the music based on how it sounds.

Both of your prior posts seem to have implied that you attribute "played by a human" as a defining quality. I'm sorry if you find this offensive, but you are basically railing against GIR because of miscommunication on your own part.

Either way, however, you are a moderator and should be setting an example for the community.

We are members here too, and human beings. Please stop expecting us to act like soulless robots.