The relationship between Quote and Curly

From one of the walkthroughs:

Gunsmith: You haven't seen the gun I made, have you?
Gunsmith: Someone went and stole it while I was sleeping!

So no, he made it himself. It's still possible it could be a standard design though, and he was taking the standard design and attempting to improve it.

 

I was pretty sure that the polar star was supposed to be the Spur when he was done with it. The Polar Star is only a prototype version of the Spur.

 

It was, and it looks like I was imagining things again...

 

Well, I'm not one for debates but...here's my testimony.

-Lol, I didn't know some people thought Curly and Quote are siblings (frankly I didn't know either, didn't pay attention to that part in the dialouge >_> ), but if that is indeed correct then I think (more or less) their relationship will be that of siblings, if not it'll be similar to that of Koukin and Hakufu from Ikki Tousen (YES, I went there, it was the only other situation I could think of >_>...)

-And on the Polar Star debate thing, I'd go along with Garbel, and say the Polar Star is just a standard grade weapon.

 

Still, I can't blame you... giving her the mushroom to eat uh... sets a uh different kind of mood.

*Quote shoves the mushroom into Curly's mouth*

*Shoves mushroom into mouth*

*Mushroom mouth*

*Mouth mushroom*

 

First, they are robots, so they don't have a biological father, if they are EDIT:siblings in some way it means that they were made by the same man.
And thats very prob. they have a similar design (exclusive to that two) and they were sent to the island with the same mission (also exclusive to that two, as robots)

Since it's impossible to have a "blood link" as robots, they are EDIT:siblings in heart.
EDIT:siblings in hearth can be lovers. And the "Iron Bond" that they shared (for me that action was one of the most romatic things i seen im my life, even more sincere than some cases i know of real life) it had a strong impact on most of players about their relationship, i bet that Pixel wanted that.

So IMO they are EDIT:siblings (or the robotic version of brother and sister, IRON BROTHERHOOD XD, just remembered that Roll had a crush on Megaman in MMPU, and they are considered EDIT:siblings because they share the same creator) but they seem to have some kind romantic feelings by each other (platonic love, as machines i bet thats only the kind of love possible)....

SO I DEFEND THAT THEY ARE BOTH LOVERS AND EDIT:siblings O_O lol

 

Even though curly's a girl? =P

 

^ I didn't understand that post but...
As i undertood it, or my english is rusty and the term "brothers" can't be use with a brother and a sister.

Or being robots we can't determine their sex... well... hum...
Curly is a girly because she or it, whatever, looks like one... (Damn the anime-type robots with dubious sexuallty breaks this rule... don't type this, don't type this... too late)
or if you talking about "other" kinds of love and she have the right female instrument for that, SHE CAN HAVE *** WITH QUOTE BECAUSE AS A ROBOT THEY DON'T HAVE BLOOD LINKS...
O_O... im taking this too serious.... damn fan theories. XP

 

As i undertood it, or my english is rusty and the term "brothers" can't be use with a brother and a sister.

In Spanish, you use the masculine word when referring to a mixed group. So, when talking about sisters you say "hermanas", for brothers you say "hermanos", and for a mixed group of brothers and sisters you say "hermanos".

In English, this is not the case. You use "sisters" only if they are all female and "brothers" only if they are all male. For a mixed group of brothers and sisters, you say "siblings".



(I seem to recall you saying somewhere that you speak Portuguese – I'm guessing it's like Spanish in this way at least.)

 

So was there that my english failed, yes in fact in Portuguese the word "Irmãos" (Brothers) can be used for mixed groups, like spanish (Portuguese and Spanish are really similar)

So i'm sorry for this mistake

(Yes, im Portuguese )

 

Jay City makes a good point; the term "siblings" doesn't really apply to robots, because they don't have biological parents.

You could make the argument that the term "romance" doesn't really apply to robots either because they can't have sex (although that might be a false assumption in the case of Q and C because of how human-like they are). I would argue that that is flawed logic, and that, if a romantic relationship is strong enough, then it will transcend the physical, and the people involved will continue to love each other even without being able to have sex. In other words, a romantic relationship can occur between any two conscious, free-willed individuals.

So the real question is, are Q and C conscious, free-willed individuals, or are they just soulless automatons that blindly obey their programming? Although the former seems to obviously be the case based on how human-like Q and C are, keep in mind that are just computers, and the whole point of a computer is that is does exactly what it is programmed to do, it can't just "choose" to do whatever it wants.

One explanation for Q's and C's uncannily human-like behavior is the whole "video-game-physics-don't-always-fit-with-real-world-physics" thing. In the fanfic that I am currently not working on because I'm too lazy, I pose another explanation. My fanfic deviates quite a bit from Cave Story, though, and in it, Q and C are initially no different from the rest of the robot soldiers (they too were sent out to find the Crown, and were just soulless machines; nothing more). What makes them special, though, is that there were two magicians trying to cast a spell to create conscious life, and, by accident, Q and C got hit with the spell, and were then endowed with consciousness and free-will.

A final point I'd like to make is that, when I first played Cave Story (and before I came to this forum), especially once I did the best ending, I had a very strong feeling that Q and C were beginning to form a romantic relationship with each other, and I personally believe that Pixel intended for the player to feel that.

 

If you could have a program write and organise experiences and then call upon those to define current personality, thought processes, choices, etc. then you can make AI follow human standards of thinking. The difference with other robots is that they log experiences but do not refer to them to make choices. They are soldiers, the last thing you want is for them to think about what they are doing.

 

So the real question is, are Q and C conscious, free-willed individuals, or are they just soulless automatons that blindly obey their programming?

But that raises another question. Are we free-willed individuals? Or are we automatons that blindly obey our instincts. Everything we do we do because we want to. And instinct basically tells us what we want to do, even if it's on a higher level. By the time you've created an AI, you've basically created life. If you give it social instincts, then it will develope relationships (if it is programmed to). Humans are basically computers in a sense. We do what we want, which is what we were made to do.

 

If you could have a program write and organise experiences and then call upon those to define current personality, thought processes, choices, etc. then you can make AI follow human standards of thinking. The difference with other robots is that they log experiences but do not refer to them to make choices. They are soldiers, the last thing you want is for them to think about what they are doing.

Well, even if you did that, you might be able to create an AI that acts extremely similar to a human (like the way Q and C act in Cave Story), but it still wouldn't truly have free-will. A computer by definition is a machine that blindly obeys its programming, regardless of how complex or elegant that programming is. In order for any entity to have free-will, the choices it makes must be uncertain, that is, for any given input, there must be multiple outputs that it is possible for the entity to give, and it has the freedom to choose which one it wants.

In the case of a computer, there is one and only one output that it will give for any set of inputs. Sophisticated AI can give the illusion of free-will, because even though there is one and only one possible output, it is so ridiculously difficult to predict what that output will be, that it seems to the casual observer as though the computer actually chose that particular output out of a multitude of possibilities, but it really didn't.

To have true free-will, one way is by magic (as is the case with Q and C in my fanfic), and another (which I believe actually happens in RL) is by quantum physics. A common argument against the existence of free-will is that the universe is just like a giant computer, blindly obeying it's "programming" (laws of physics), in which everything is deterministic. The future of the universe is completely certain, and only gives the illusion of uncertainty, because of how difficult to predict it is. This only works in classical physics, however. Quantum physics, on the other hand, suggests that the universe is not nearly as cut and dry as it seems, and that there really are many different possible "states" that the universe could potentially take on in the future, and nobody knows which state the universe will "collapse" to until it actually does. Although which state the universe collapses to is usually thought to be random, I personally believe that it is not random, and is actually the result of people excercising their power of free-will. This would explain why humans have free-will, especially since most neuroscientists agree that quantum physics is an integral part of the brain.

Which sort of answers your question, too, GChzr (you must have posted while I was writing this, lol xP)

 

Well, even if you did that, you might be able to create an AI that acts extremely similar to a human (like the way Q and C act in Cave Story), but it still wouldn't truly have free-will. A computer by definition is a machine that blindly obeys its programming, regardless of how complex or elegant that programming is.

Our brains obey their programming by controlling body functions, organising experiences so that commonly accessed memories can be recalled easily while forcing less commonly accessed memories to be less accessible (a.k.a. forgetting). Along with various commands constantly sent to the human body and sections of the brain used for various functions such as humour.

Our brains "blindly obey" their "programming" in they same way.

In order for any entity to have free-will, the choices it makes must be uncertain, that is, for any given input, there must be multiple outputs that it is possible for the entity to give, and it has the freedom to choose which one it wants.

But the choices we make are still bound by our experiences. Without experiences, we would not have a personality or choices, let alone be able to make them. Our experiences define how we make choices, and the same thing can be applied to robot AI.

In the case of a computer, there is one and only one output that it will give for any set of inputs. Sophisticated AI can give the illusion of free-will, because even though there is one and only one possible output, it is so ridiculously difficult to predict what that output will be, that it seems to the casual observer as though the computer actually chose that particular output out of a multitude of possibilities, but it really didn't.

Are you comparing this to a modern computer?

They would make only one output because they consider it more efficient. Also it is because they do not constantly run multiple operations but rather run them when needed. That means that the AI can't think.

Has it ever occurred to you that modern-day Earth sucks at AI in comparison?

To have true free-will, one way is by magic (as is the case with Q and C in my fanfic), and another (which I believe actually happens in RL) is by quantum physics. A common argument against the existence of free-will is that the universe is just like a giant computer, blindly obeying it's "programming" (laws of physics), in which everything is deterministic. The future of the universe is completely certain, and only gives the illusion of uncertainty, because of how difficult to predict it is. This only works in classical physics, however. Quantum physics, on the other hand, suggests that the universe is not nearly as cut and dry as it seems, and that there really are many different possible "states" that the universe could potentially take on in the future, and nobody knows which state the universe will "collapse" to until it actually does. Although which state the universe collapses to is usually thought to be random, I personally believe that it is not random, and is actually the result of people excercising their power of free-will. This would explain why humans have free-will, especially since most neuroscientists agree that quantum physics is an integral part of the brain.

Which sort of answers your question, too, GChzr (you must have posted while I was writing this, lol xP)

Wrong.

Read:
http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com/2008/07/free-will-and-quantum-mechanics.html

 

Any person who would program male and female robots would program them like human males and females, so yes, they would have the same drawbacks.

 

Personally, after glancing through the topic, I think this guy took the words out of my mouth:

Personally, my impression was more of a 'brothers in arms,' or 'inseperable-friends' thing; Curly is willing to sacrifice herself for Quote because they've already been through near-death situations, and he's demonstrated himself to be, overall, better suited to defeating Misery/Doctor and saving the Mimigas.
But then, I just object to romantic interpretations of main characters' relationships with their fellows whenever ambiguity allows me to, unless it's something unconventional. >.> <.<

I was actually attached to and going to use the word "partners", in the team sense, but that's what I meant and he said it better. And I also agree with the not-liking-unnecessary-romance-sideplots thing.

As for the free will thing, I never even questioned it. If a story presents me with a robot that acts as though it has free will, and has no slipups in said act, I will treat it as if it has free will and is thus a person, simply because doing otherwise makes for a worse story. Anyways, it's pretty obvious Curly did things she couldn't possibly have been programmed to do. Why would the programmers have allowed her to spend the better part of ten years raising mimiga children? Why would they have programmed one of two robots on their side to sacrifice herself for another robot who had likely already taken more water damage than her by the time she made the decision? Most telling, why would they program her in a way that would allow her to feel guilty about events she thinks she committed in the past before losing her memory? Obviously free-willed if you ask me.

 

Hmm.. I think Quote could be named as such because he's a copy, a piece, or a "quote" of the original. Quote seems to have no recollection of his past by how he interacts with others... Meaning as you learn things about the game, Quote takes this forgotten knowledge to be fact to piece together who he is. Only by the player's positive decisions towards the Best Ending does Quote perhaps start to remember the past, the way he reacts to certain situations and the mysterious Jenka history could be interpeted as one of Quote's lost memories surfacing.
Just a random idea lol

Anyways as for free will, AI seems to be very advanced in Cave Story. Whether it's MALCO or the wandering robots or Curly and Quote... They act very human in their responses. I don't believe any of the robots were blind in their ability to think. Are there safety protocols that force them to do certain things? There is no evidence either way in Cave Story...
How could AI and robots be so advanced and yet you have an old fashioned helicopter transporting scientists? Well, you could say magic... or magic influenced technology... or perhaps just like the long lost kingdom of Ballos, there were people of high technology that have long since been lost to time. [You do see strange things in Cave Story, like an organic Core inside an ancient technological base deep in the bowels of the island of Cave Story...] Don't tell me Jenka and the Gaudi's built that base And, it seems unlikely that the military forces of the island would have had a secret base on the island or built that base on the island....... The Gaudis conversations imply that Jenka created the Labyrinth, and put the Gaudis down there to protect the heart of the island... So that base was probably there already... The fact that the whole water system seems connected to that base but was regulated or controlled by the core seems like it could be further proof that the base and core have been there for a long time. It's hard to say though...

*cough* and as for Quote and Curly's relationship lol
I think they aren't originally designed by the same creator. So they aren't literally robot brother and sister in my opinion. I don't sense that kind of relationship from them... maybe. I'm basing this upon their minds, rather than their bodies. Unlike humans at this point... robot bodies can be replaced, and their minds can be transferred to a new body. So, probably, originally they weren't the same robots they are now. But, that their current bodies and technology could be created by the same scientists/country/manufacturer.

This of course would make it tough to define who they are... Let's say Curly and Quote have had different bodies over time [even if they look the same], but the same minds basically throughout. However... they lose their memories in Cave Story.

But facts are...
Quote and Curly were sent together on a different mission than all the other robots. Even if they lost, or something happened, and they forgot their memories, even if their bodies might have been damaged as well...
Ten years later, Quote and Curly find themselves drawn together again. Quote didn't have to save Curly or spare her; Curly didn't have to save Quote. [taking Best ending as canon] She didn't have to give Quote this "Iron Bond"... But, they did meet again, and did give Quote this seemingly valuable strange object she had been carrying. It does not seem to have any other importance except that it is significant to the two of them.

And finally, how does the best ending end? Q&C accomplish their mission and... randomly go somewhere they can be free together. Not back to base, not returning for another mission or to be fixed up. Not to look for other robots... It's simply let's go somewhere where we can live the rest of our days peacefully (with a great view). Now what kind of robot response is that. I think the history between Curly and Quote is long and maybe they decided to protect each other once upon a time...

Even if Quote and Curly are different than when they first started ...
"Iron Bond - Your tie to Curly Brace, the only warrior you would trust your back to. Surely you will meet again one day..."

This is the closest thing to Quote's own words or thoughts directly given to us. The only warrior Quote would trust his back to. That should sum up Quote's relationship towards Curly. Someone that he would risk his neck for.

I think Curly's relationship towards Quote could be much more complex. Assuming she got her memories back, whereas Quote did not... She might remember something that causes such a decision.
Balrog : So what are you going to do now? I can take you anywhere you like.
Curly : Hmm, you're right...
[I wonder what she was thinking, since she did not consider this wild decision until Balrog brought it up. Was she wondering what happens now? Do we go back? What's left for us?]
Curly : Our mission is over, and now I just want to live out my days somewhere where I can relax and enjoy a beautiful view...

That sounds frivilous doesn't it? But, then again maybe this line speaks loads about Curly. Not that she's frivilous But, that this is the exact opposite of what you imagine a robot doing. What's her purpose? No she isn't thinking like that, she's just wanting to live out her days in peace.

What about when she saves Quote and you wake her up [drain the water]... You're alive! Oh, I'm so glad... I didn't think we were going to make it. Once you fell unconscious, I couldn't think of any other way... (to save you) Looks like my air tank worked just like I'd hoped. Ah...
I added that (to save you) because I think that's her type of thinking. Simple, not stupid; but simple. She couldn't think of a way to save both herself and Quote, so she saves Quote at all cost.

When you first meet Curly, she doesn't give you a chance to explain, she simply begins to attack because... she has it in her head you'll kill them! Because she recognizes you as a robot!

She's not very robot-like, and that's why I call her a broken robot...
She seems short-sighted and rushes into situations... Not very logical.
She quickly seems to care for everyone (even enemies), but maybe specially Quote.
Just because she regains her memories thanks to the magic talking mushroom (!?), doesn't mean she regains who she was before she lost them.

So, um... I think Curly's relationship towards Quote is simple caring, but also something deeper thanks to their prior history together.

Brother and sister relationship? Meh...
Romantic relationship? Eh,...

Maybe a caring broken robot with a promise and a robot that is missing who he was.
But, maybe it's best that way?

So if you had to label it, I'd say brother/sister relationship... but that's only on the outside. Maybe it's more like, once was similar to intimate (as far as robots go?), but now it's more like lovingly looking after the one that used to know you, so now you start over with a new beginning...?

[oh and as for laws of the universe, and level of technology or what kind of technology, science and how it works, blah blah lol well I simply will say, not enough information. It's basically comparing fantasy to reality. Although feel free to say how IF this was our reality, this...]

Hopefully there was some sense in my writing I sleep now

 

About the emotions of a robot.

As was stated here, as robots maybe they can't have complex feelings because they are just machines.
But also that humans are some kind of machines, and a robots can be like humans as free and with soul beings, with the right programing.

I belive this is very possible, we didn't apear here on earth as humans in the first place, we apeared in some sort of monkey-like creatures, animals.
Why that changed, evolution. Robots can evolve too IMO.

X-C, you compared Curly as a broken robots (i remembering Wall-E now, the broken robots were the ones that were free, because they didn't obey the original programations) Maybe were are just a bunch of Broken Monkeys XD, but this is some sort of evolution.

About that "evolution", you said about "" and } being are too much evolved comparing with the helicopter for example. Well that a clasic problem of SCI-FIC XD, im reading 1984 of George Orwell, right now and that is the perfect example of that.

And now supose that robots can really love, as i said before they can only have some sort of platonic love, Mr. W Cheese said that they can't have Sex but they can still love each other (platonic love in fact).
I tought about the mater, and i think that we are too "chained" of the human concept of Sex.
In the past, i readed (i don't remeber if this is the past of read), again a book. (i just love reading sorry ) of a Portuguese Author, it was the kind of history of sorcery and medivial sorts, the books show some sceens of sex (it's not porn, ok XD), you know normal thing, but there has one with a Sorceress and a Warlock, She had strong light powers and he dark powers, she were trained to kill each other but they fallen in love (so cliche), but they didn't share their body, they shared their magical auras in some sort of dance, the description of the scene was something of sex, but it's was something difrent, maybe even more powerfull. (This is very simmilar with the birth of Terra in FF6...)

Sex (Love basically) is about sharing a part of ourselfs with other, maybe the strongest way to show that love to somebody... *cough*Iron*cough*Bond*Cough*

That said i deffend that both Quote and Curly can show true love AND MAYBE EVEN MORE THAN A HUMAN (depending of your concept of love) with each other

Curly seems to have to have her own will, and even Quote seems that too, not by he what he say (Yes.........No........ <- maybe his speaking algorithms are broken XD) but by his actions and for what is thinking (if we can consider the description of the items, iron bond for example, what he's thinking.) You know Ness from EarthBound/Mother 2? He seems very secure on his quest but theres one time that we can see his mind... (or even intrepet his exclusive bad status) It's something like that.

 

i think that we are too "chained" of the human concept of Sex.

exactly, well said.

maybe his speaking algorithms are broken

I don't think Quote actually has any trouble speaking, it's just that Pixel likes to make his games in the "silent protagonist" style (he does the same thing in Ikachan). There are several points in Cave Story where it's pretty obvious that he's having a conversation, Pixel just implies his speech, rather than stating it explicitly.

Q: I spoke to this robot, and he said he could make an explosive to get you out of there.
K: Explosives? Yeah, that could work.
Q: He needs me to collect materials: Jellyfish Juice, Gum Base, and Charcoal.
K: Wait, did you say Gum Base? Hang on a sec...
...

M: What's the password?
Q: Litagano Motscoud.