Forum Elitism

I mentioned a couple things in IRC that I'm gonna repeat here:

First: Shitposts directly attacking any member need to be publicly punished. I asked GIR, and he said that Hiino was infracted for this post, but there is no way any of us could know that. GIR does this great thing where he goes all USER WAS WARNED FOR THIS POST (please note i was not actually warned) which makes it easy for the population of the forums to know what exactly will be punished. It'd be real great if the other members of staff started doing that as well.

Second: This should go without saying but be nice. This past year I've tried being nicer to new members to try and improve them and woah hey it actually works what. Not to say that the community hasn't been getting better in this regard, no, the fact that all of Hayden's examples are from around two years ago speaks to that. But it's important to make an effort.

 

I won't disagree with you that there haven't been any recent major incidents of new users being unfairly persecuted. Most of the cases that struck me as really bad were either two years ago, or almost two years ago.

Well then.

Just in case we're unclear, it is extremely rare that I think there is a case where the new member isn't at fault at all and the rest of the community is, if there ever was a case such as that. Rather, it's the fact that when a newbie makes a mistake, they get unnecessarily chewed out, and the community makes the situation worse through their hostility.

As said earlier, the problem is not really that they make a few mistakes, it's that they (almost) only make mistakes. Would it be possible that they at LEAST learn and understand the rules of the forums, and more generally, how to forum nicely?

The first heavily persecuted member that comes to mind is DualHack. I admit that I skimmed through his content and couldn't find any case where he was persecuted without there being some mistake on his part, but the fact remains that almost all of the posts he made that got him heat weren't made with bad intentions.

If good intentions were all that was needed to make a good person, I'd agree with you. But when you're terrible at being an added value to the events taking place, people usually aren't going to want you to stay.

It would have been far more constructive to point out his mistakes to him politely, and only get snippy with him in the event that he begins to inflame a situation. By no means do I condone his actions, but you can't deny that it was largely the community's fault that he got mad enough to make a ragequit thread.

Yes, because the community actually wanted him to leave (see Fab's, Dunc's posts). Also I'm kind of sorry to say this, but his behaviour is *typical* of a person with his profile. Andwhy predicted he would come back really fast, and... I mean we're at fault there, but it really doesn't help that they all act the same because it doesn't encourage anyone to give them a chance.

Pointing out his mistakes would have been equivalent to spamming him with links to the forums rules until he gave up. Again, if you can't be bothered to read the rules of the forums you're joining before starting spamming, or to use your head to reconsider the usefulness of whatever you're going to post, then you are not going to be appreciated.

I myself am not very fond of users who join and make an announcement asking for a team of a dozen supporting artists, composers, ans script writers, but some established users have trouble distinguishing between newbies like that, and a those simply asking for ideas.

Ok no. You're being mistaken on this case. There are two very important problems to this thread. The first one is described in the second line of my post: it's that he failed to meet the very basic requirements of someone asking for help. It's not only bad forum behaviour, it's bad social behaviour. The second problem is that, before asking for ideas that make it look like you want us to make your game concept from scratch and assume responsibility for its success or failure, you have to show that the project is not just a whim on your part and that you actually, you know, worked on it a little bit?
There is no way he wouldn't have gotten any (or even ONLY) snarky comments. From whom they come is not relevant.

Putting aside the fact that almost all ideas in the ideas and development section get abandoned, listening to and giving ideas are exactly what that section was for, and that's all that Ultrasyther was asking for. And both you and Captain Fabulous accused him of wanting us to produce tangible content for him. I came very close to jumping to his defense, but I didn't quite do it. If I were a mod or admin, both you and Fab would have received warnings for your respective first replies to that thread.

That's why you aren't going to be a mod/admin on these forums for any other reason than a joke. If someone I don't know asks me for my time and my talent and my effort without "hello" or "please" or ANYTHING to do something that he didn't even bother trying to do by himself first, forget snarky comments, I'm going to try really hard not to slap him. And that's fucking logical.
Oh also, try to imagine, say, Fab making this thread. I would immediately think it is a joke and blurt out a "lol [insert purposely terrible ideas for a mod there]" (you know, that's not elitism, that's just because I know he's better than that, and there's no way a thread coming from him wouldn't be a joke, be honest), and then if he appears to be serious, I will react the same way as I did for Ultrasyther. In the end, no matter what, he wouldn't get what he wants.
I think this hypothetical situation summarizes quite well the difference between an "old" member making a mistake and a "new" member making the same mistake.

Another unfairly persecuted member that comes to mind is Nutty20. Before we really got to know him, he seemed to most people like a cool guy,

You're joking right? This message from Dunc happened after he made two spam threads and a few useless thread bumps. Dunc's message was undoubtedly sarcastic. Also note how Fab calls out this stupid post by cultr1 in the same thread. No one is safe. :v

but that was before he really started producing a lot of content here. When he posted his fourth spammy forum game topic within that week (which was basically a rehash of one he had recently created), all hell broke loose upon him. I dislike spammy forum games as well, but exploding at him like that was just immature. Spammy forum games aren't made by newbies with malintent, they're made out of naivete. And what was really cold was Dunc and Randolf who completely invalidated any prior affiliation with him after realizing he wasn't quite what they thought, seemingly because they didn't want anyone getting any ideas that they were friends with someone who made spammy forum games. True, Tpcool did kind of half tell you, bobbyis, and the others off, but it didn't really address the full extent of your hostility. And that was really the only action that was taken against you guys.

I actually regret making this post. I regretted making it as soon as I posted it. But I felt like I had to make a point. I did not mind getting warned/banned, because I wanted to be the one to be excessively disrespectful in order to convey the message that no, this was not the right way to participate in a forum.
What surprised me was that he... uh... used my rank of "Junior Member" to tell me off. So basically, he considered that because I was supposedly barely older than him on the forums, I didn't have the right to call him out on his bullshit. Instead of reflecting on his actions and maybe try to understand why I snapped at him, he just laughed at my junior member face and passively told the mods to take care of me by "let[ting] the banhammer frown upon this one". Like seriously isn't that exactly the kind of behaviour you didn't want us to harbor?
Bonus question, will you reread my post and tell me that anything in what I said was wrong, regardless of the tone I employed?

Even supposing you got a warning for those posts, any new member that had tried to tell him off would have gotten worse. This was, again, another case where I came close to intervening, but didn't quite since I didn't feel confident enough in my status as an established user to do so.

I don't think it was on purpose, but you sound awfully like someone who thinks his opinion matters greatly when discussing moderation matters. Like an adult "intervening" in a fight between two kids. You should be careful, it kinds of invalidates your argument.

Another one that comes to mind is Goldenblade. I admit I found his poor understanding of software and what kinds of downloads not to trust amusing, but the community was a bit unnecessarily snarky with him. Novice technological skills aside, he was a very mature, nice, and level-headed user, which was further evidenced when I talked to him later.

I hadn't read the conversation you linked. This is enlightening, as you already made the same points as you're doing right now, and Fab and Dunc make absolutely valid points against your claims. "If Goldenblade didn't fit the stereotype of "help i need 2 make gr8est moad ever how use computer" he might have gotten a warmer reception. This is a situation where lurking before joining would help immensely."
If Goldenblade is actually a cool guy, good for him and for the forums. That's what we want. But understand that we cannot be bothered to find what little good any new member that forgets basic rules of the forums and how to lurk before posting possesses. If one starts off as a bad member, chances are they are actually a bad member, and statistics vindicate this by a large margin.

The last 2012 persecution that comes to mind is that of brycenstory99. Even though he was kind of annoying and immature, I admit he didn't suffer much persecution... Up until near the end. By you. I realize that Fab kind of called you out, and that DT implied he wasn't fond of your post, and I wouldn't be surprised if you got a warning, but the fact remains that a new member was being chewed out harder than necessary, and that if it were a less established user yelling at him, then the user yelling at him probably would have had harsher treatment. The responses weren't really "Attacking users is not acceptable, please don't do that.", but rather more along the lines of "Oh, Hiino, Hiino, Hiino, what are we going to do with you..."

I think your view is twisted by your opinion. Fab called me out the same way he'd have done with a new member being stupid. DT disapproved of my post. Noxid gave me 3 warning points. I got one or two PMs reprimanding me (ok you couldn't have known that). My answer did get treated by the community as an unacceptable answer.
I'll reiterate what I said about my previous anger-driven post. It's not my proudest moment, and since then I stopped making such aggressive pleads (except once in the IRC. That's another brycenstory). For the last 2 years. I mean, if you think I haven't improved...
Also, not trying to advocate my situation at the time, but keep in mind that brycenstory revealed himself to be so bad, he got banned.

I am well aware that there is a lot less merit to naming these incidents now that it's been two years,

Yeah it's almost like the thing to remember is that no case like those happened in two years, and that's quite the argument against you.

but I still think this is an issue that should be discussed while we're at it because it never really was questioned much then, and I think if it isn't then other such incidents are bound to happen again sooner or later. If I were as optimistic as Dunc is, then I would have complained about this myself much earlier, but, like I have said in my previous posts, I was never expecting complaining about this to accomplish anything. But since this topic has come up and I have all the time in the world this week I see no reason not to give this my all and see what happens.

An argument you like to pull out is that we should just simply use the report feature. Sure, maybe the mods will get a report believing that certain persecution said new user is suffering should be punished, but how much would they have agreed with such reports considering mods themselves have participated in yelling at new users? In numerous cases they would have just seen a report, dismissed it as being petty, and taken no action. I realize that I used to believe this to a larger degree than is the case, and looking back there probably are some cases in which if I had used the report feature the user who ought to have been called out but wasn't would have been called out, but ultimately it would have only watered down the problem.

I don't see how. If a user deserves to be called out, and you reporting him or his posts make it happen, then the report feature served its purpose AND the problem for said particular case is solved. That's all there is to it, I think.
All of this talk about what and who deserves to be called out is highly subjective. If no protestation is emitted against the behaviour of an user, be he old or new, then there is presumably no action to take against him because that means nobody is bothered by it.

In conclusion, you guys could have made these claims 2 years ago, it would probably have been a good thing. The forums have been uneventful for months now, it's like barking at the moon.

 

Even since I joined (a bit less than half a year ago) it seems that elites are getting less jerkish to new members. Some problems solve themselves. This one still has not been entirely fixed, but is obviously better than it was a few years ago (I read through some of the old posts.) In a way, some of the new people actually were idiots...mainly goldenblade, but they still should be treated decently kindly.

 

I joined a year ago, and I was shy around forums back then. I was afraid that whatever I would say on this forum would recieve backlash. I was totally wrong on the most part (sorry, stupidity, you'll never catch a break... ). Most of the elites (besides Carrotlord) are nice and it prompted me to come back to the forums, after a 5 month hiatus, and get over the whole 'shy' thing. Thanks elites, you really did your part!

 

Sounds like this thread has been wrapped up. At least until:



THE RETURN OF THE EVIL ELITES
Coming This Fall


I'm actually fine with most elites, they're normally pretty nice

 

It would be interesting to have "USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST" as well.

e: USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST

 

As said earlier, the problem is not really that they make a few mistakes, it's that they (almost) only make mistakes. Would it be possible that they at LEAST learn and understand the rules of the forums, and more generally, how to forum nicely? If good intentions were all that was needed to make a good person, I'd agree with you. But when you're terrible at being an added value to the events taking place, people usually aren't going to want you to stay... [T]he community actually wanted [DualHack] to leave (see Fab's, Dunc's posts). Also I'm kind of sorry to say this, but his behaviour is *typical* of a person with his profile.

So is your intent to drive users like this away, or to help them improve? If your intent is to drive them away, then okay, drive them away. Some users like Lord Shadow I saw no chance for improvement in, so I don't hold much against anybody for being hostile back at him. But for all the other members I listed, you guys couldn't seem to make up your mind about whether to drive them away, or to try to help them improve. If you're trying to help them improve, then being hostile is going to make them a lot less likely to listen to you.

Andwhy predicted he would come back really fast, and...

Just about everyone predicted that.

http://www.cavestory.org/forums/threads/4027/ [I express my belief the Ultrasyther did nothing wrong]
Ok no. You're being mistaken on this case. There are two very important problems to this thread. The first one is described in the second line of my post: it's that he failed to meet the very basic requirements of someone asking for help. It's not only bad forum behaviour, it's bad social behaviour.

Not saying hello, goodbye, please, and thank you isn't the best social behavior, but if they aren't being overly rude, stuck-up, or ungrateful, then calling them out on missing basic social courtesies is worse than that itself. Especially over the internet where stuff like that matters a lot less. Honestly, if you rag on the fact that he could have been a little bit more courteous, then you're being way too hypercritical, unless you're Ultrasyther's dad in which case I guess it's your responsibility to make sure that he's as polite to others as possible, but I'm just going to go out on a limb here and guess that you aren't his dad.

The second problem is that, before asking for ideas that make it look like you want us to make your game concept from scratch and assume responsibility for its success or failure, you have to show that the project is not just a whim on your part and that you actually, you know, worked on it a little bit?

He clearly wasn't asking for people to make his game concept, nor for anyone to assume responsibility for its success or failure, where did you even get that idea? Read his post over again and you'll see that no part of his post even vaguely implies that. This false accusation of yours pretty much proves my point. The community's gone colorblind between people who want us to make their game for them, and people like Ultrasyther. And when the ideas and development section was open, having tangible content to show was not a requirement at all.

[At first people thought Nutty was cool]
You're joking right? This message from Dunc happened after he made two spam threads and a few useless thread bumps. Dunc's message was undoubtedly sarcastic. Also note how Fab calls out this stupid post by cultr1 in the same thread. No one is safe. :v

In his fourth spam thread, Dunc seemed to be acknowledging that he did at first think he saw potential in him as a member. If he was being sarcastic, he probably would have said so, since he had a tendency even then to exploit other members' blunders in understanding sarcasm. So I think it's pretty safe to assume Dunc wasn't being sarcastic in that VM.

I actually regret making this post. I regretted making it as soon as I posted it. But I felt like I had to make a point. I did not mind getting warned/banned, because I wanted to be the one to be excessively disrespectful in order to convey the message that no, this was not the right way to participate in a forum.
What surprised me was that he... uh... used my rank of "Junior Member" to tell me off. So basically, he considered that because I was supposedly barely older than him on the forums, I didn't have the right to call him out on his bullshit. Instead of reflecting on his actions and maybe try to understand why I snapped at him, he just laughed at my junior member face and passively told the mods to take care of me by "let[ting] the banhammer frown upon this one". Like seriously isn't that exactly the kind of behaviour you didn't want us to harbor?
Bonus question, will you reread my post and tell me that anything in what I said was wrong, regardless of the tone I employed?

I don't disagree with anything you said in that post. But since the goal of your post didn't seem to preclude the idea of trying to help him to improve, you would have had a much better chance of getting through to him if you didn't explode. This goes back to my point above that newbies aren't likely at all to listen to you if you flame while you admonish them. When the newbie makes a mistake, they're at fault. And then when you flame, you're at fault. And when both parties at fault, they're blinded by each other's faults from seeing their own. You're so fed up with 13-year-olds and spammy threads that you don't care that you're flaming, and the new member is so focused on being mad at getting flamed that they can hardly see how they're at fault. If you attack them when you criticize them, what do you expect them to do? Do you expect them not to feel attacked? Do you expect every new member with a little bit of dignity to respond to your flaming by falling to their knees and begging for forgiveness for their oh so horrible mistake? It is human nature to automatically think that you're a victim if someone is being hostile with you, so you're shooting yourself in the foot by equipping the new user with a mental bias against what you have to say by yelling at them when telling them off.

Actual circumstances have proven that a new user is far more likely to listen to advice when it isn't coupled with hostility. Would it really be that hard to hold your temper knowing that you may very well be rewarded? There are circumstances under which good advice is enhanced by added snarkiness, but the circumstances are rarely appropriate for such.

[W]e cannot be bothered to find what little good any new member that forgets basic rules of the forums and how to lurk before posting possesses. If one starts off as a bad member, chances are they are actually a bad member, and statistics vindicate this by a large margin.

That's being really judgmental. The fact that you operate under that philosophy, and that nobody on your side has challenged that statement in the time that it's taken me to write this post, shows that this topic is definitely still relevant even though the extreme cases I provided were either two years ago, or almost two years ago. It's really bad practice to make negative assumptions about people that you can't prove are true, or at least it's bad practice to act upon those assumptions. Statistics don't justify it because you never know when you'll run across an assumption that is false. Users should be considered innocent until proven guilty on a case-by-case basis.

I think your view [on this post] is twisted by your opinion. Fab called me out the same way he'd have done with a new member being stupid. DT disapproved of my post. Noxid gave me 3 warning points. I got one or two PMs reprimanding me (ok you couldn't have known that). My answer did get treated by the community as an unacceptable answer.
I'll reiterate what I said about my previous anger-driven post. It's not my proudest moment, and since then I stopped making such aggressive pleads (except once in the IRC. That's another brycenstory). For the last 2 years. I mean, if you think I haven't improved...

Fair enough. And yes, I admit you have improved greatly. For example, your reply to Parkraft's first thread was one of the most constructive posts in that thread.

If a user deserves to be called out, and you reporting him or his posts make it happen, then the report feature served its purpose AND the problem for said particular case is solved. That's all there is to it, I think.

Is it your belief that the same principle applies even if one or more moderators are participating in the chastisement? Do you expect a moderator to be called out for their post if you use the report feature? And even if said post isn't by a moderator, how likely is it that they'll agree with said report? Noxid and Gir participate the the elitism on these forums, so are they going to be inclined to act on an anonymous report asking a user practicing elitism to be called out on it? Because if they aren't, then they'll just move on with their day and ignore it.

In conclusion, you guys could have made these claims 2 years ago, it would probably have been a good thing. The forums have been uneventful for months now, it's like barking at the moon.

You do bring up a good point there. There are actually some more recent incidents of this, they're just not as extreme. That's why I didn't name them, but I guess I should:

Bombchu Link aka BLink. Like many new members, he had many novice-like tendencies during his first couple months here, some of which I myself found rather annoying. Then at a certain point he shed most of his stereotypical issues, got good at modding, and established somewhat of a fanbase with his mod, Sue's Story. However, beyond this there were several instances in which drama was added to most situations that he associated himself with based on his religious stance coming up. He most definitely wasn't blameless, but I felt that the community was also largely at fault for provoking some of them. I didn't call anyone out in that case, but I did afterward tell him that I didn't feel like he did much wrong. In fact, in the most recent prolonged fiasco revolving around him that I can think of, it was actually more because of Gir than because of anyone else that the situation became inflamed. In fact, the first few posts that followed were kind of hostile, unlike Bombchu's replies. I didn't call Gir or anyone else out because I didn't altogether disagree with everything they said (especially in their later replies that were a bit more productive), but I still did feel that they were at times being more hostile than necessary.

ColdCallerLoppy. Yes, he had some serious issues, although there were several instances of excessive ridicule. Not that there weren't some constructive posts that gave him advice in addition to the one by Polaris that I linked to earlier, but at times the community made things a bit harder than they needed to be. This wasn't to an extreme that roused me to intervene in any particular instance, but it still shows that the problem of elitism is still going on.

Funwillfunwill. His JPEG Story thread was running pretty much in parallel with CCL's Ballos Hell showcase thread (programming pun intended), and I guess the same problems more or less apply.

In the instance with Bloodfire that you linked to earlier, I actually came very close to telling off Noxid and Dunc, but I decided against it since I didn't feel the situation was quite bad enough. Still, it does show that established users still do make negative assumptions about newbies and act on them.

I apologize for not citing as many sources on these more recent members and not going into more detail. I'm hoping that the fact that they're more recent will make up for it. If you want to challenge some of the statements I've made with the more recent incidents, then I can try to elaborate a bit and provide some more links tomorrow, but right now I'm getting tired of writing this post.

In a way, some of the new people actually were idiots...mainly goldenblade

Are you kidding me? Goldenblade was easily the most mature and competent of the users I listed in that post.

 

So is your intent to drive users like this away, or to help them improve?
If your intent is to drive them away, then okay, drive them away. Some users like Lord Shadow I saw no chance for improvement in, so I don't hold much against anybody for being hostile back at him. But for all the other members I listed, you guys couldn't seem to make up your mind about whether to drive them away, or to try to help them improve. If you're trying to help them improve, then being hostile is going to make them a lot less likely to listen to you.

So it is naturally incumbent upon you to decide that they should improve instead of go away. Right. A community isn't always in agreement with itself (example: this debate) so obviously some people are going to act positively and other negatively. New member or not. Or do you think you can say the contrary and prove to us that everyone can accept to act the same way when presented against a problematic situation?

Just about everyone predicted that.

Good job Sherlock, andwhy is the only one to actually mention it in the thread.

Not saying hello, goodbye, please, and thank you isn't the best social behavior, but if they aren't being overly rude, stuck-up, or ungrateful, then calling them out on missing basic social courtesies is worse than that itself.

Not saying "hello" or "please" or "thank you" IS being overly rude and ungrateful.

Especially over the internet where stuff like that matters a lot less.

Being subject to elitism also matters less on the internet, yet here we are.

Honestly, if you rag on the fact that he could have been a little bit more courteous, then you're being way too hypercritical,

Or you're being way too hypocritical. You're telling me to be more polite and courteous, and then you want me to not pick up on the lack of politeness coming from someone who is asking for something.

unless you're Ultrasyther's dad in which case I guess it's your responsibility to make sure that he's as polite to others as possible, but I'm just going to go out on a limb here and guess that you aren't his dad.

That's being judgemental. How would you know about my private life? We are on the internet here. Everyone is anonymous and constantly lies about their identity. You're assuming things although you have no idea about their truthness. Truly you can do better than that, Hayden. I hope so, at least. Otherwise this wouldn't be an argument anymore, just the wild rantings of a void-minded crank on some forums. I am appalled. Disgusted. I have in fact just pierced my own two eyes and am havng wpme diificuklties tuping noxw

He clearly wasn't asking for people to make his game concept, nor for anyone to assume responsibility for its success or failure, where did you even get that idea? Read his post over again and you'll see that no part of his post even vaguely implies that.

You read his post again and you tell me in the eyes that delivering literally 0 information about your game and already asking for ideas doesn't mean you just want people to make your game for you. Also, notice how I said "make it look like" because that's certainly how it looked like.

This false accusation of yours pretty much proves my point. The community's gone colorblind between people who want us to make their game for them, and people like Ultrasyther. And when the ideas and development section was open, having tangible content to show was not a requirement at all.

And that's exactly why the ideas and development section was closed. QED.

In his fourth spam thread, Dunc seemed to be acknowledging that he did at first think he saw potential in him as a member. If he was being sarcastic, he probably would have said so, since he had a tendency even then to exploit other members' blunders in understanding sarcasm. So I think it's pretty safe to assume Dunc wasn't being sarcastic in that VM.

After talking with Dunc himself about that, it appears that he was, apparently, more sarcastic than not. Coincidentally, the picture in the post you linked might apply to you.
And you're assuming things again.

I don't disagree with anything you said in that post. But since the goal of your post didn't seem to preclude the idea of trying to help him to improve, you would have had a much better chance of getting through to him if you didn't explode. This goes back to my point above that newbies aren't likely at all to listen to you if you flame while you admonish them. When the newbie makes a mistake, they're at fault. And then when you flame, you're at fault. And when both parties at fault, they're blinded by each other's faults from seeing their own. You're so fed up with 13-year-olds and spammy threads that you don't care that you're flaming, and the new member is so focused on being mad at getting flamed that they can hardly see how they're at fault. If you attack them when you criticize them, what do you expect them to do? Do you expect them not to feel attacked? Do you expect every new member with a little bit of dignity to respond to your flaming by falling to their knees and begging for forgiveness for their oh so horrible mistake? It is human nature to automatically think that you're a victim if someone is being hostile with you, so you're shooting yourself in the foot by equipping the new user with a mental bias against what you have to say by yelling at them when telling them off.

Actual circumstances have proven that a new user is far more likely to listen to advice when it isn't coupled with hostility. Would it really be that hard to hold your temper knowing that you may very well be rewarded? There are circumstances under which good advice is enhanced by added snarkiness, but the circumstances are rarely appropriate for such.

This would be a good point if not for the fact that I already mentioned regretting making the post, apologized about it, and plan on not doing this kind of post again.
I think I'm going a little far, but it appears possible that, if someone is so fed up with a member that he loses his temper over them, it might be because he's not trying to help them improve anymore and just want them to stop their bullshit and leave. But yeah it's not a good argument, as it's still an anger-based, violent reaction and we did already say that we should try to be nicer to new members.

That's being really judgmental.

Yeah maybe it is judgemental. Maybe being judgemental is the point. Maybe "justice" uses judgement as its foundation. Maybe the "ju" from "justice" and the "ju" from judgement have the same etymological root.
Also, justice doesn't mean equality. We're not going to give the same chances to someone who only made shitposts as to someone who have proven themselves to be a good member on more than one occasion. I feel like I'm repeating the same thing that has been said over and over in this thread, but you don't seem to understand.
Not everybody is worth lending a hand to. Some members are bad and will stay bad. If a member is bad and is going to become good "later" (something that we cannot know in advance, mind you), then they'll be gently given the path to the door with the suggestion to come back "later". If a member only shows his bad side, then he's going to be evicted. Period.
"Oh but they just have to understand that what they have done is a mistake, just give them a little time!" Yep, you just described the mindset behind a temporary ban.

The fact that you operate under that philosophy, and that nobody on your side has challenged that statement in the time that it's taken me to write this post, shows that this topic is definitely still relevant even though the extreme cases I provided were either two years ago, or almost two years ago.

Unless it shows that you are the only one who thinks that this "philosophy" is wrong. But yeah it's easier to assume that you're right by default. Oh hey assumptions again.

It's really bad practice to make negative assumptions about people that you can't prove are true, or at least it's bad practice to act upon those assumptions. Statistics don't justify it because you never know when you'll run across an assumption that is false.

Now I'm very sorry but I am not going to answer this. Please reflect on this, deeply, and ask yourself numerous times whether it is true or not.

Users should be considered innocent until proven guilty on a case-by-case basis.

Although we are considering guilty people who are actually guilty of numerous rule-breakings, you, on the other hand, certainly are considering us guilty of being elitist.
You are using the "good intentions" argument all over again, this time by disguising it as a concept of "innocence". They break rules. Regardless of whether they did it on purpose or not or whether they had good intentions or not, they are not innocent. It's not a case of "not considering someone innocent until proven guilty".

Is it your belief that the same principle applies even if one or more moderators are participating in the chastisement?

Yes. What's your point?

Do you expect a moderator to be called out for their post if you use the report feature?

Yes. Are you assuming their status of moderators are going to prevent them for acknowledging when they go overboard? I would say they are more likely to do so than the rest, actually.

And even if said post isn't by a moderator, how likely is it that they'll agree with said report?

As you said earlier, case-by-case basis. Basically what has been said since this thread started. You can read our posts again and consider them to have been rewritten here as my argument. I'll wait here.





Good. You will also be pleased to know that, following a complaint from at least one member over her behaviour, MetaSeraphim's posts now have to pass mod approval before being posted. What, did you assume all old members were in cahoots with each other and against the new members' "club" and that they constantly agreed with each other and were always siding with each other no matter how unfair it was?
Moving on now.

Noxid and Gir participate the the elitism on these forums, so are they going to be inclined to act on an anonymous report asking a user practicing elitism to be called out on it? Because if they aren't, then they'll just move on with their day and ignore it.

Who says they participate? I saw a lot of helpful posts coming from Noxid and GIR. Elitism is subjective, maybe they seem to be big angry evil demon elitists to you, but to me they are doing their job pretty well. Did you know moderating isn't about smiling to the members and saying hello and tolerating their behaviour and reprimanding the very bad cases? You'll have to look up cashiers and retail workers for that.
You say that assuming things is bad but you're quick to assume things, aren't you? I'll have to admit that it's kind of hard not assuming things over the internet.

Bombchu Link aka BLink. Like many new members, he had many novice-like tendencies during his first couple months here, some of which I myself found rather annoying. Then at a certain point he shed most of his stereotypical issues, got good at modding, and established somewhat of a fanbase with his mod, Sue's Story. However, beyond this there were several instances in which drama was added to most situations that he associated himself with based on his religious stance coming up. He most definitely wasn't blameless, but I felt that the community was also largely at fault for provoking some of them.

I disagree.
Both with the fact that the community is at fault, and with the fact that this may be considered an instance of "drama".

I didn't call anyone out in that case, but I did afterward tell him that I didn't feel like he did much wrong. In fact, in the most recent prolonged fiasco revolving around him that I can think of, it was actually more because of Gir than because of anyone else that the situation became inflamed.

I disagree.
I mean, wait. I'm gonna stay on this case for a bit longer than necessary. If you read GIR's post, there is literally nothing that could be interpreted as elitism or aggressivity or anything that could be considered bad. Just genuine incomprehension. If you read the following posts by GIR, Noxid, Fab, everyone is just puzzled by the amount of insanity Bombchu's views on life and religions are/were. To boot, this is a Well thread. The synopsis is "you're stuck in a well, and people asks you questions while you're trapped". Of course he's going to get personal and hard-to-answer questions. If he can't answer them and feels oppressed, it's his problem. He was the one to make the thread without being asked to. No one reprimanded him for stopping the thread.

In fact, the first few posts that followed were kind of hostile, unlike Bombchu's replies. I didn't call Gir or anyone else out because I didn't altogether disagree with everything they said (especially in their later replies that were a bit more productive), but I still did feel that they were at times being more hostile than necessary.

I disagree.
And once again, those accusations seem primarily based on your feelings, which appear to not be shared by a majority of people here. Have you considered that incomprehension isn't necessarily contempt, incentives aren't necessarily aggressive, conversations aren't necessarily debates, and debates aren't necessarily flamewars?

ColdCallerLoppy. Yes, he had some serious issues, although there were several instances of excessive ridicule. Not that there weren't some constructive posts that gave him advice in addition to the one by Polaris that I linked to earlier, but at times the community made things a bit harder than they needed to be. This wasn't to an extreme that roused me to intervene in any particular instance, but it still shows that the problem of elitism is still going on.

Not worth talking about.

Funwillfunwill. His JPEG Story thread was running pretty much in parallel with CCL's Ballos Hell showcase thread (programming pun intended), and I guess the same problems more or less apply.

Same.

In the instance with Bloodfire that you linked to earlier, I actually came very close to telling off Noxid and Dunc, but I decided against it since I didn't feel the situation was quite bad enough. Still, it does show that established users still do make negative assumptions about newbies and act on them.

I will say it again. Negative assumptions? He didn't want to get better at the game. He wanted a medal without having worked hard to earn it.
AND numerous people immediately helped him. A whole first page.
AND he was actually a whiny bitch. Dunc's answer, although an example of the elitism you seem to WISH exists, is perfectly on point. Imagine ANYONE, including an old member, making a thread like that asking for help. Do you think he's not going to be treated the same way? Really?
AND where the fuck did you see Noxid being elitist on this thread? He made two posts, the first one being an actual answer, the second one being an actual answer AND asking for a more civil tone. Like are you even trying now?

I apologize for not citing as many sources on these more recent members and not going into more detail. I'm hoping that the fact that they're more recent will make up for it. If you want to challenge some of the statements I've made with the more recent incidents, then I can try to elaborate a bit and provide some more links tomorrow, but right now I'm getting tired of writing this post.

No need to. I'm basically rehashing the same points I gave you in my previous answer, but more insistently. The general consensus (and I do say general) seems to be either not caring, or laughing at this thread, or being in my favor. You're probably going to answer me with the same arguments you made in this post, which I'll yet again answer with mine. I do not see the need to continue any further, at least not in this thread.

 

I'm basically rehashing the same points I gave you in my previous answer, but more insistently. The general consensus (and I do say general) seems to be either not caring, or laughing at this thread, or being in my favor. You're probably going to answer me with the same arguments you made in this post, which I'll yet again answer with mine. I do not see the need to continue any further, at least not in this thread.

You are kind of right that this argument would probably go in circles if it went any further, and arguably has already been. So I guess I won't encourage the idea of keeping our discussion with each other here going, as I myself am getting tired of this. And I make no claim against your statement that I am in the minority on this topic within the demographic here. I always have been, which is why I never started this thread myself. But since this discussion was happening I wanted to make sure that Dunc's side was at least represented as well as it could be, even if it made no difference. Can't say I wasted any time since this discussion conveniently fell on days where I had nothing better to do than post here. I realize this is at least the third time in this thread I've said that, but I don't want browsers of this thread to have an excuse to miss it.

Also, on the case with Bloodfire, that is my fault for not re-reading it before making that post. I was getting tired of writing that post and relied on my vague memory based on one previous read through it but really that's no good excuse, so sorry, that was a bad example.

Sorry Dunc, but I can only expend so much energy fighting a battle I knew we were never going to win the the first place. I'm out.

 

I'm glad we're not having discussions in circles between you two anymore, it seemed you both had some good points and kind of glossed over the others' at times.

I'm not sure where to go from here, really, discussion-wise. This can definitely be an issue at times, but it's also somewhat rooted in things that can't really be "cured" - I'm not sure the battle you speak of can be won, Hayden.

Would it be a start if we agreed to use the Report button with its proper use when thought necessary and try to keep each other in check to an extent, I wonder? Because I think a bit of it is sometimes you just don't want to start conflict with a friend/established member/mod just to defend a person you just met, especially if said friend/mod/whatever is a little volatile at times. Then again, I'm the most chicken hearted of this group, so maybe that's just me - I know I've been prone to giving backdoor advice, criticism or support in the past when I don't want to challenge some member.

 

"Elites are being rude"
"Yeah so"
"So it's bad"
"New posters have to make a first impression"
"Yes but you're being rude"
"Yeah so"

The argument is whether or not people are being hostile and we are going around in circles as far as I can tell. If you are offended by a post then report it. Now the conversation is revolving around who is the biggest duche[sp] on the forums and who needs to stop. Who gives a fuck? We already found a solution to this problem. I don't even know why you guys are arguing.

Also hayden what battle, what nonexistent battle are you possibly trying to fight
This isn't attack on elite nor is it save the newbies

 

Also hayden what battle, what nonexistent battle are you possibly trying to fight
This isn't attack on elite nor is it save the newbies

Hayden's had a very "us vs them" mentality about this discussion since the beginning, and I find it rather appalling, really.

 

Dunc's side

This is where you're wrong. This essentially is the primary reason Hiino has been so steadfast in arguing with you. It's not us against them, Hayden. Both """"""sides"""""" are in agreement that elitism is wrong and uncalled for hostility is bad. These were the main points of starting this thread and they've been established. Hiino's points are perfectly valid; the oppression of the younger members has declined significantly in the past year, and as a direct result of me making this thread, metaseraphim was put on modqueue. She was by far the most toxic of the members to, well, essentially everyone, and got away with it for a long time. I really think this thread has run its purpose, Hayden.

 

Well I suspect that everyone's lack of patience at the time was directly proportional to the number of new mentally underage users logged in at any one time. We are all human and we all have limits, and when those limits are pushed then people lash out, and it is not always at the people responsible. None of us were prepared for dealing with so many new users, and while having to deal with the same nonsense over and over we saw patterns and became cynical.

Say you stand in a room and have a different person walk in each time and ask the same question and wait until an answer before the next person comes in and does the same thing. How many people before you start shortening your answer or become more dismissive in tone? The last person asks a slightly different question to the rest, but gets the same dismissive answer. Is it fair on the last person when your irritation is at the people before him? If these cases were more spread out then you might be more patient and understanding, but that wasn't the case.

Not that I am justifying it, but it pays to understand why this all happened.

 

In the more-specific case of funwill, does this mean he's justified with reporting Fab for this post, even if it was for all the wrong reasons?
(Come to think of it, did Fab actually get an infraction for that?)

 

Anyone's justified in reporting anyone who's being a major dickhole. Even a minor dickhole. The kind that are hard to piss through. However, in that case, funwillfunwill wanted feedback for something he hadn't uploaded yet, and I was right, and it was funny. In my defense.

And I just want to make it clear that this isn't an example of elitism. I'm a dickhole to just about everyone. I'm sometimes less of a dickhole to my friends, who happen to be old members.

 

Who *happen* to be old members.

 

Who *happen* to be old members.

He, who happens to be an older member himself, is more likely to be closer friends with other older members than to be closer friends with newer members.

 

He, who happens to be an older member himself, is more likely to be closer friends with other older members than to be closer friends with newer members.

There is a really big gulf between old and new members, like between generations... But still, if a new member is promising or is nice to talk to, they have greater chance to become friends with one of the older members.

Honestly, newcomers who don't even know what shifts and commas are for don't gain much respect in my eyes in the beginning.

Still, even some of the older members don't know what shift is for at times... :/

 

There is a really big gulf between old and new members, like between generations... But still, if a new member is promising or is nice to talk to, they have greater chance to become friends with one of the older members.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I suppose I meant that it's similar to generations, as you said, in the sense that (at least from what I've observed) it's easier to connect and thus more easily become friends with people going through similar things, which in this case would just be a similar stage or generation of forum members. It is very possible for newer members to become friends with older members just as it is very possible for older members to become friends with members from a closer generation.