Forum Elitism

if y'all want I could just stop posting
clearly my swagger isn't appreciated anymore

 

Or everyone but you could stop posting, and then your shitposts would become the best content on the forums.

 

I thought they already were

 

I was actually legitimately going to apologize to you a while ago hayden but i really had no clue how to say it other than "I was an immature asshat back then and yeah i'm sorry for that" and you seem like the type of guy who would want a college thesis on "why the fuck i'm sorry"

but yeah i can understand why you are still mad at me. I'm pretty much posting when i feel like it which happens to be rare-ish nowadays because it's gotten kinda samey recently. I can understand why i seem like some kinda boogyman to you still because i never really went out of my way to make things right with you after about a year of not harassing you anymore

but yeah i was an ass back then, still kinda am, sorry for harassing you back then

I forgive you, SEBTi. There's no need to write a wall of text of apology, this definitely suffices. All I needed was a simple apology. Glad that we could close that book that's been hanging open the past two years.

It's not our job to police the forums 100% of the time everywhere, you have to realize we're only human. Our job is to resolve issues that are brought to our attention. Basically what I'm saying is that report button exists for a reason.

I wasn't saying you've been inadequate in dealing with spam in general, considering I myself wouldn't be super anal-retentive about it if I were a mod. I was just providing my reasoning for why I didn't call Noxid out on blanket posting or creating his "waste of time" thread as he was doing it. And for the record, as of mid March 2013, I have been using the report feature for situations that I feel should be dealt with that I feel are out of my hands. But spam is something that I choose to leave up to the staff's discretion. Sorry if you felt like I was saying you weren't calling users out enough for spamming.

 

I would agree with everything Hayden says, but this forum has been dead foreve now, all that's left is maybe 20 member at max. This isn't some fresh, self generating board, if it was Nox would have a lot more posts and a larger percentile of them would be more constructive. the last post that's constructive that nox made iirc, is the one about my ASM hacking guide, no thread like it has come up since. except that one asking about frames per step or something a few days ago.

Actually I lurk a lot on this other board, and there's a guy that's just like Nox, he's funny, but also has threads to post in that are actually constructive. Nox just lacks the constructive threads to post in.

I fins Nox's humor very funny and it has made my day a lot of times after tearing my eyes out working with assembly code.

that post gave me cancer

/\ I laughed so hard reading that.

 

*loudly applauds*


Okay, these were good points, but the problem isn't just Noxid. Many members on the forums are jerks. Most get warning points if they are newer members being jerks. But if some of the more established members flame, spam, or whatever else you can do on a forum, they never get reported. The reason for this is that some members don't want to report because they feel that they will get flamed by MORE established members, ruining their reputation on the forums.

It is true that moderators are above the law in a way. If you report them, at most they will get a few warning points, nothing major. Normally they wouldn't get punished at all, because they are all established members who would be scared to give another mod points (not saying anything against all mods, but some seem like this.)

And this is from a decently new member's point of view.

 

Okay let's take a moment there and take a look at the situation.
Dunc, Doors, Hayden, and some others (sorry I didn't take note of everyone who posted there) are calling out the "old people" on their elitism toward new people.
Old people like Noxid, Fab, GIR, and some others (sorry etc etc), on the contrary, consider that it either is normal, or cannot be helped, or is a good thing.
Regardless, pretty much the whole forum makes shitposts (except for me). Alright.
We already stated that the "invincible" old members were people who had already proven that they could also make good posts every once in a while (except for me). This is probably true, but it doesn't mean that we aren't injust with new members. So we'll have to check if the gramps aren't being a bit too aggressive and "elitist" toward new people.
For that, let's examine a few of the newest people with 10 messages or more.

Bloodfire: Joined 03-July 14 · 10 posts, 1 thread
Probably lying about his age (I hope so, at least)
His thread is about cheating because he cannot (and doesn't want to) get better at the gam- oh, wait, what is this?
Huge bump
No posts outside of the satellite lounge and the waifu thread.

MimigaEmpire159: Joined 02-July 14 · 12 posts, 3 threads
13 years old (wasn't when he joined)
One thread's first post is two and a half sentences long and is misinformed.
Another is also two sentences long, and isn't really constructive.
The third one is... what is it anyway? Is it a presentation thread (belongs in the showcase, with way more info than that) or a thread for asking questions about modding (we have enough general-purpose modding threads for that)? Thankfully the contents of the thread became interesting.
His other posts seem important.

apis: Joined 04-June 14 · 25 posts, 1 thread
12 years old
A Challenge mod. A regular mod thread, which he seems to take care of correctly.
Acknowledges his bump, asks a relevant question. Answered by Noxid.
A bug report.
I am not finding any really useless post, and am not finding any elitism toward him from the old members (including in our private conversations). Apparently, when you're a good new member, you don't get criticized. Who knew.

Hydorah: Joined 29-May 14 · 10 posts, 2 threads
A question. (Relevant) answers from Noxid, andwhy, DoubleThink. No shade thrown.
Another question, with (relevant) answers from... Noxid. Still no shade thrown.
And some kind-of-ontopic posts in Nadojin's thread in the showcase. Still nobody threw any sha- oh lol

ryan66679: Joined 11-May 14 · 11 posts, 3 threads
This guy is my favorite
Let's skim through his threads.
Obviously he got made fun of a lot, and do you know by whom? That's right. Tpcool and ZarroTsu are the only "old" members who did. All the other messages (maybe 40 or more) come from either new members, or members who complain about elitism.
His other posts? yeah uh anyway. Wait, oooh

So what I can gather from this data of the 5 newest members with 10 posts or more is that, not only do you not get any snark when you are actually a decent member (you even get help, from the "old" members, mostly) but also the people who make fun of you when you're a shitty person seem to majoritarily be "not-old" members. Furthermore, people like Dunc who complained in this very thread seem to also be very prone to shitposting, the same kind of shitposting (and the exact same shitposts) on which they called people like Noxid out.

On an unrelated note, I got more warnings and sanctions during the last year than since I joined the forums.

 

Or we can just keep firing and then creating new mods until these forums die (in about 5 years at max.)





Jk that would just make us all hate each other even more.


Ps and Most of the moderators arent actually evil and crazy...just some.

 

@Dunc: Something else I'll mention regarding newer users is that seeing as a lot of them are now in a group together I've sometimes got the feeling that you either know you're screwing around or that you'll figure out your problems off-forum. I know not everyone is included but it seems as though there's more support for younger users these days, or at least not a single group calling all the shots. It can also be difficult to keep track of which new users are being given a harder time, or how badly they're taking it, or even who the are (all of these Quote avatars I swear).

But if some of the more established members flame, spam, or whatever else you can do on a forum, they never get reported. The reason for this is that some members don't want to report because they feel that they will get flamed by MORE established members, ruining their reputation on the forums.

Reports can't be seen publicly

 

A harsh fact is that some people on these forums are more important than others, there's no denying that. If for some reason we had to choose between banning a newcomer or an user we are familiar with, it's a decision easily made. But this also means that of course, they get away with a lot more shit because kicking out one of the few oldtime users on this site is much more preposterous than just smiting a newbie out of here.

But i think it'd be just civil to also show respect for the older users and not just immediately start shitposting in funny words/necrobumping/maymays/CAPSMODE/comic sans or what-have-you, or get hypersensitive because one of the older people called you out on your lunacy. It'd be common courtesy to treat this place with some degree of respect and not like a public bathroom where you smear your shit on a wall and expect the janitor to love your work. You are making a first impression, and if you use that moment to be as unlikeable and smug as possible without breaking any explicit rules you shouldn't be surprised that you are banned the next day. You have to realise nobody is here making you stay.

I'm not saying the elites here are innocent, we can be just as shitty as everyone else but the newbies here aren't exactly innocent victims of the tyrannical rule of the CSTSF.

 

Furthermore, people like Dunc who complained in this very thread seem to also be very prone to shitposting, the same kind of shitposting (and the exact same shitposts) on which they called people like Noxid out.

Oh I never meant to imply that I was above this at all. I'm well aware that I do exactly what I'm calling out here, but I think my awareness of that was a fairly large reason as to why I started the thread.

@Dunc: Something else I'll mention regarding newer users is that seeing as a lot of them are now in a group together I've sometimes got the feeling that you either know you're screwing around or that you'll figure out your problems off-forum. I know not everyone is included but it seems as though there's more support for younger users these days, or at least not a single group calling all the shots. It can also be difficult to keep track of which new users are being given a harder time, or how badly they're taking it, or even who the are (all of these Quote avatars I swear).

Oh trust me, I know. My direct intervention with a couple members (Blink in particular) is part of the reason they aren't as bad now as they were before. Most people haven't noticed but this year I've been actively trying to be nicer to newer members, which I think (not to be full of myself or anything) has improved life for newer members here, at least a bit. Wanting to make life better for newer members was the other part of the reason I made this thread. I'm not quite sure what inspired me to be nicer to them but it started happening and now we're here.

 

Wonder how long this thread will last. Well, last until a moderator shuts it down. It's just one long argue meant that keeps going back and forth with people saying the same things over and over.

 

my conversation with Meta in the waifu thread just kinda tipped my hand.

Finally! Finally someone woke up and smelled the coffee, I was wondering when someone would do so and talk about it.

I am really proud of you for making this thread.

 

I had a post yesterday and it...died. Because I still worked all day.

So...to heck with that. :/
I'm just going to watch how this unfolds for now.

Wonder how long this thread will last. Well, last until a moderator shuts it down. It's just one long argue meant that keeps going back and forth with people saying the same things over and over.

It's going to last until either people get too afraid/uninterested to post in it, or until it devolves into a bad flame war. As it is, nothing worth locking, I think. Debates can be good if it doesn't get too nasty and a consensus can be reached.

Finally! Finally someone woke up and smelled the coffee, I was wondering when someone would do so and talk about it.

It was seriously the most fragrant coffee ever, too =o

 

Personally, I've felt that some form of elitism existed here, though not at a huge level (Hiino makes some valid points).

Subconsciously we pretty much trust the names of more experienced posters than newcomers. It's not really about attacking the new guy. An analogy is seeing your friend do something stupid opposed to someone you have never seen before do something stupid. I'm just as guilty, in the sense that I'm not gonna play some newcomer modification (unless the reviews are really good on it), but sure as heck I'll play anything by GIR or BLink or anyone else I've known here, without question.

It's natural in a sense. Not justified, but likewise not super-unreasonable.

As for solutions, It was already mentioned that the report button exists for a reason.

 

That is a very good point. People do subconsciously judge, but sometimes they intentionally do it. It really is a pretty bad problem, but not a gigantic problem as some make of it.

 

@Hiino

I won't disagree with you that there haven't been any recent major incidents of new users being unfairly persecuted. Most of the cases that struck me as really bad were either two years ago, or almost two years ago.

Just in case we're unclear, it is extremely rare that I think there is a case where the new member isn't at fault at all and the rest of the community is, if there ever was a case such as that. Rather, it's the fact that when a newbie makes a mistake, they get unnecessarily chewed out, and the community makes the situation worse through their hostility.

The first heavily persecuted member that comes to mind is DualHack. I admit that I skimmed through his content and couldn't find any case where he was persecuted without there being some mistake on his part, but the fact remains that almost all of the posts he made that got him heat weren't made with bad intentions. It would have been far more constructive to point out his mistakes to him politely, and only get snippy with him in the event that he begins to inflame a situation. By no means do I condone his actions, but you can't deny that it was largely the community's fault that he got mad enough to make a ragequit thread.

I myself am not very fond of users who join and make an announcement asking for a team of a dozen supporting artists, composers, ans script writers, but some established users have trouble distinguishing between newbies like that, and a those simply asking for ideas. Putting aside the fact that almost all ideas in the ideas and development section get abandoned, listening to and giving ideas are exactly what that section was for, and that's all that Ultrasyther was asking for. And both you and Captain Fabulous accused him of wanting us to produce tangible content for him. I came very close to jumping to his defense, but I didn't quite do it. If I were a mod or admin, both you and Fab would have received warnings for your respective first replies to that thread.

Another unfairly persecuted member that comes to mind is Nutty20. Before we really got to know him, he seemed to most people like a cool guy, but that was before he really started producing a lot of content here. When he posted his fourth spammy forum game topic within that week (which was basically a rehash of one he had recently created), all hell broke loose upon him. I dislike spammy forum games as well, but exploding at him like that was just immature. Spammy forum games aren't made by newbies with malintent, they're made out of naivete. And what was really cold was Dunc and Randolf who completely invalidated any prior affiliation with him after realizing he wasn't quite what they thought, seemingly because they didn't want anyone getting any ideas that they were friends with someone who made spammy forum games. True, Tpcool did kind of half tell you, bobbyis, and the others off, but it didn't really address the full extent of your hostility. And that was really the only action that was taken against you guys. Even supposing you got a warning for those posts, any new member that had tried to tell him off would have gotten worse. This was, again, another case where I came close to intervening, but didn't quite since I didn't feel confident enough in my status as an established user to do so.

Another one that comes to mind is Goldenblade. I admit I found his poor understanding of software and what kinds of downloads not to trust amusing, but the community was a bit unnecessarily snarky with him. Novice technological skills aside, he was a very mature, nice, and level-headed user, which was further evidenced when I talked to him later.

The last 2012 persecution that comes to mind is that of brycenstory99. Even though he was kind of annoying and immature, I admit he didn't suffer much persecution... Up until near the end. By you. I realize that Fab kind of called you out, and that DT implied he wasn't fond of your post, and I wouldn't be surprised if you got a warning, but the fact remains that a new member was being chewed out harder than necessary, and that if it were a less established user yelling at him, then the user yelling at him probably would have had harsher treatment. The responses weren't really "Attacking users is not acceptable, please don't do that.", but rather more along the lines of "Oh, Hiino, Hiino, Hiino, what are we going to do with you..."


I am well aware that there is a lot less merit to naming these incidents now that it's been two years, but I still think this is an issue that should be discussed while we're at it because it never really was questioned much then, and I think if it isn't then other such incidents are bound to happen again sooner or later. If I were as optimistic as Dunc is, then I would have complained about this myself much earlier, but, like I have said in my previous posts, I was never expecting complaining about this to accomplish anything. But since this topic has come up and I have all the time in the world this week I see no reason not to give this my all and see what happens.

An argument you like to pull out is that we should just simply use the report feature. Sure, maybe the mods will get a report believing that certain persecution said new user is suffering should be punished, but how much would they have agreed with such reports considering mods themselves have participated in yelling at new users? In numerous cases they would have just seen a report, dismissed it as being petty, and taken no action. I realize that I used to believe this to a larger degree than is the case, and looking back there probably are some cases in which if I had used the report feature the user who ought to have been called out but wasn't would have been called out, but ultimately it would have only watered down the problem.

Also yes, both Dunc and Doors make low-content posts and participate in the elitism and forum persecution as well. But the fact that they were both able to recognize and admit that shows integrity. And I admire them for that.

 

Okay seriously hayden this is ridiculous. No one sane is going to sift through your essay because it's fucking huge. You can say the same thing with less words and people will actually be able to read it and talk about it.

 

Okay come on his post takes like five minutes to read at most and it's long because of the content, not because of unnecessary wordiness. Hayden brings up good points and to ignore his post because it's "too long" just means you're too lazy to be bothered. He's making quality posts and when we're trying to have a discussion it's a little stupid to just ignore someone because they're saying too much.

 

Okay, so, for everyone's sanity, let's see if I can do a summary on what's been discussed in this thread.

1 or 2 years ago, new members were often treated "with disrespect" that, while not entirely undeserved, was not appropriate for the situation. Also of note is that Noxid, a person in a position of power, took part in these "shitposts" from time to time.

However, current data suggests that this is a trend that is diminishing as evidenced by Hiino's list of the last 5 newbies and their post summaries. And that most recently it seems that Dunc and Doors have been the ones showing off their "elitism" the most.

So from this thread I have gathered 2 things:

1) Try to be nicer to the newbies
2) A majority of the "regular crowd" of forum goers were all a bit stupider 2 years ago

Those are about the only things of value I can gather from this thread so far.