Matt does helping things for the modding community

Oct 12, 2012 at 9:28 PM
I don't anymore.
"I'm sorry Mario, but your princess is in another castle."
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Demotivation is certainly a tough monster to fight. Usually when I get workin on something I like to have people to bounce ideas off of and I take any opportunity I can to make changes that better suit the game. It's all about your development rather than your concepts and ideas. Keeping yourself motivated it a personal thing with lots of different methods of approach. Artistically you can find yourself looking to alot of things similar to what your making. Seeing other forms of art can motivate you with ideas of new things to try, hearing different music can give you ideas of the mood of that one place you wanted to make, or give some ideas on tone.

Demotivation usually happens when the development process grows repetitive. If you aren't interested in scripting, and the next room requires tones of the tedious stuff, you're likely to put it to the side and save the work for later. It's best to just tackle these issues, cause they aren't nearly as bad once you start, and the thrill of getting that challenge out of the way can motivate you to continue, and even make it seem less bad the next time you have to do it. "Totally something you should do to a player i a game btw"

Finally, if the most fun part of development for you is planning it out before hand, while you should get alot of that done before starting, save what you can for mid development. Don't do all the fun stuff first and give yourself an ocean of work to swim through. It sucks, and it was the biggest reason I was so quick to move from Towers after demo 1. Adding new concepts to the game helps too. Chances are, if your constantly analyzing your game as you build to see what it needs, you might come up with new ideas that are fun to implement.

It definatley helps to have an interesting idea to keep yourself motivated, but if you can't keep the process fun then you can go for a pretty long time before hitting that motivational wall.

Hey, and article on demotivation in general. Let's just post a link here shall we?
http://www.productiveflourishing.com/how-to-recover-from-10-types-of-demotivation/
 
Oct 12, 2012 at 11:15 PM
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Thanks for the quick reply! And the link...
Oh man... according to that site I'm suffering from all 10 types of demotivation at once, in one form or another xD

I'll try to read the solutions and deal with it... maybe there's hope for a mod yet...
 
Oct 12, 2012 at 11:28 PM
I don't anymore.
"I'm sorry Mario, but your princess is in another castle."
Join Date: Aug 9, 2010
Location: Greener Pastures
Posts: 1190
Age: 30
Thanks for the quick reply! And the link...
Oh man... according to that site I'm suffering from all 10 types of demotivation at once, in one form or another xD

I'll try to read the solutions and deal with it... maybe there's hope for a mod yet...

Heh. We all hit bumps, dealing with them is important.

Gonna try to make updates to the post tonight with pictures. I really want this to be helpful, so I'll do my best to make it interesting and therefor more effective.

Info about your mods being used is now in the initial post.
 
Oct 12, 2012 at 11:30 PM
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Last Updated: October 12, 2012

Actually it's not as black and white as that sounds. I'm just going to continually update this initial post with problems that occur in most mods that we see, why they happen, and how an individual can fix them.

=Way Too Hard=

So anyone who's played a mod here will notice that some of the mods we see are just absurd in difficulty. Even though we want to see challenging mods out there, these tend to not present any real challenge, but instead are chalk full of fake difficulty. Fake difficulty is when something in a game is hard on the player, but is not their fault. Whether it's 100% exact presicion that's expected or things that pop up and attack the player before they can even react, it's all bad and super frequent here. A proper challenge needs to be presented to the player before they need to tackle it. They need to see what an enemy can do before they are forced to attack it, or see that an object will hurt them before being thrown at it. New things must be presented in an enviornment where the player can learn how to approach them without consequence, before being presented as a challenge.

Another aspect of fake difficulty super common here, is throwing a shit ton of high HP enemies at the player at once. You can only handle so much as a player, and if 15 enemies are there at once, they should only take 1-2 hits to kill, or you should have a strategic advantage over them. If it's 8 Guadi throwing swords at you, then the modder should have made them either easy to kill, or given you cover so you have the ability to avoid taking damage.

Also on this list is save points being misplaced. If you know something is going to be hard on the player, put your save point BEFORE it. If you have learned that the map they're running through always kills players before the end of it, put a save room somewhere in the middle. It's alright to have challenging things, but if you know something will likely kill a player they're first time around, you should A) see if it's fakely difficult and B) put a save point in the area.

This also happens with traps. As a general rule, putting traps that instantly kill the player because they didn't make the game are bad. If only YOU know how to do something, and you EXPECT the player to do it, this is a problem. Fix it.

No health available is also an issue. Cave Story was never afraid to give you health at any point really. Hell doesn't count as it was designed to be fake difficult, but you can't ask a player to go too long without taking damage.

These things happen alot, and they happen because they're the easiest pitfalls to fall into for new game makers. It's easy to justify designing impossible tasks or unfair ones by saying "it's supposed to be hard". This needs to be fixed by carefully planning things out. Don't just make a stage and throw things at it later, get some paper and draw it. Decide where enemies go as you build, not after. Ask yourself if that's fair or reasonable. If your player has enough resources. If they make sense. Approach things in this sort of manner and you'll see some definate improvement.

=ASM hacking is the solution to all lifes problems=

No it's not. If your game is shit, it's not because you don't have the gun you want in it. It's because your game doesn't feel good to play. Your modding Cave Story, an almost perfect game, it has all the capabilities to produce a fun mod without hacking. Saying that your demo is unfun because you don't have a hack there isn't right, it's unfun because it's unfun. Stop using this as a crutch and expect more from yourself.

=Unfinished=

We all know why this happens but I'll say it anyways, sometimes you come in with an idea way to big for it's own good. This is probably your first dip into game design, and it should be treated as such. There should be more mini mods out there where people experiment and learn how to do things. You can tell which mods a person learned as they went with. Like that crappy mod Towers. The designer clearly made everything as he learned and the maps are each based off of some new TSC technique or hack someone made for him. It isn't cohesive, and trying to finish a game that's started off poorly is extremely hard. Also don't ask for help unless you show your capable of producing your half by yourself. Don't ask for tilesets until you've built maps with placeholder art, don't ask for super ASM hacks until you've experimented with what you can do without, and never just drop out of the face of the Earth if you can't finish and someone helped you. If someone did something for you they invested time in you, and if you can't finish they deserve an apology and some explanation.

=Not taking Critisism Seriously=

If you have someone test or play your game, the majority of the feedback you receive will be about bugs and typos. But what I happen to see alot of is the few comments made about gameplay, or difficulty are ignored or thrown to the side. Alot of the times a mod maker will say that, "it's because it's not done yet" or "It's supposed to be super hard" or at the worst, "YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND!". There is a rule of game design that you have to know when receiving feedback, you are the WORST judge of your own content. You know every trick, secret, strategy and script in the game. If a player tells you they can't figure one out, it's tempting to just say it's because something's wrong with them and that you're doing just fine.

A good thing to consider though, if someone makes a specific suggestion on how to fix a problem, "you should get rid of the bats in this room" they aren't nessecarily right. Those bats may be the only challenge in that room. So what does this mean? It means that even though what they said isn't nessecarily right, there is still a problem. Take a look at those bats, why would someone want them gone? Let's say for example, you haven't given your player a weapon. The issue could be that the bats are frustrating because they are hurting someone who can't fight back. Or that there are too many in a space that you have to move in between. If you have given them a weapon maybe they deal too much damage for the players health, or maybe the bats have too much health. There are alot of possible problems, and these small issues really shouldn't be ignored, as if you keep designing rooms with these problems, they will add up really quick.

=Lack of Atmosphere=

Now only a few mods have done this one right, "WTF Story, anything made by Ralren" but atmosphere is something that makes your mod really nice, and even makes people pay less attention to any flaws your mod may have. Atmosphere is something that makes people lose themselves and get stuck in your world. It's what makes your world believable to a player. Great video games out there that are ripe with atmosphere are Metroid Prime and Batman Arkam City. Alot of mods don't have atmosphere, then tend to just seem like... well mods really. Your're constantly reminded that you're playing a game by bad tile placement, invisible walls, and in general things that only happen in games. Other than avoiding these obvious things, what you need to capture atmosphere is lots of detail.

It's fairly easy to fall into this trap if you don't care for your mod as much, but if you do, add detail. Put in little story pieces, "dead bodies, broken things, signs of past events in general" and don't tell the player about them. Let the player see these elements and infer their meaning on their own. You don't have to tell the player much in a game if your design makes sense, because their imagination is a much more powerful tool than you think. This can be applied to alot of things actually, but I'll get to that later.

Other important details to have are interactive ones. Let the player interact with the environment. Whether it's letting them press down to read about things or letting them destroy weak structures, giving them an environment they can interact with makes them feel like they're a part of that world, which is amazing. This generally requires work, but as you can tell, if you want to make something good, you kinda have to do work.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This post will be continuously updated. The modding community here is bad. No other way to put it. BAD. So I want to try and move it in the other direction.

Hey, if you are working on a mod or have released a mod, I won't use it for reference without your permission. If you would like to give me permission to use your mod in reference in an above post, please let me know, and I'll be sure to mention the context it's used in to you if it is negative. It would be a good opportunity for you to apply changes to your mod if you so desire. Critique matters, and I'll be gentle. Use ranges from pictures to in depth analysis, regardless, I'll warn you first.
If the modding community reads this crappy mods that don't make sense will become dead and more GOOD
mods will start being made.
(also i made some corrections to spelling errors)
 
Oct 12, 2012 at 11:35 PM
I don't anymore.
"I'm sorry Mario, but your princess is in another castle."
Join Date: Aug 9, 2010
Location: Greener Pastures
Posts: 1190
Age: 30
Much appreciation. Those fixes will be applied, but we'll see crappy mods until the end of time. Less is always better nevertheless.
 
Oct 13, 2012 at 4:04 AM
I don't anymore.
"I'm sorry Mario, but your princess is in another castle."
Join Date: Aug 9, 2010
Location: Greener Pastures
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I certainly hope so, post updated with some picatures. I'll try to be more positive so I don't have to use so many negative pictures.

I have a few ideas, but does anyone want me to touch on a sepcific topic?
 
Oct 13, 2012 at 4:09 AM
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Like a mod? In that case DAVE story its poorly mapped and the maker supplies the player with some much health to survive spikes. That would make the game far to easy.
 
Oct 13, 2012 at 4:14 AM
I don't anymore.
"I'm sorry Mario, but your princess is in another castle."
Join Date: Aug 9, 2010
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Like a mod? In that case DAVE story its poorly mapped and the maker supplies the player with some much health to survive spikes. That would make the game far to easy.
I don't want to touch a mod without someones permission. I mean more like mistakes and stuff.
 
Oct 13, 2012 at 4:26 AM
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Oh. Then i would say the mapping on most mods. There too complicated and have glitches. I see in most bad mods they forget wall on the edge of the map, so if you fall you would no way of getting back up. Also punctuation, people forget this all the time. Finally putting something like this
Code:
<MSG<FAC0001 Person: *Text*
.Its completely unnecessary. The right thing to do is to make another character say their name.
 
Oct 13, 2012 at 5:05 AM
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WarCheif said:
Oh. Then i would say the mapping on most mods. There too complicated and have glitches. I see in most bad mods they forget wall on the edge of the map, so if you fall you would no way of getting back up. Also punctuation, people forget this all the time. Finally putting something like this
Code:
<MSG<FAC0001 Person: *Text*
.Its completely unnecessary. The right thing to do is to make another character say their name.

Hehe. You're right on the last point, though.

With no offense intended to a lot of the modders out there, the same people who are good at scripting/programming and level designing and that sort of stuff are rarely also the same type of people who are exceptional at writing (things like that faux pas about character names, subtle nuances, characters having different "voices"/thought processes, grammar to precisely indicate speech tempo etc).

King Story and similar mods are the rare exceptions to that.
 
Oct 13, 2012 at 5:45 AM
I don't anymore.
"I'm sorry Mario, but your princess is in another castle."
Join Date: Aug 9, 2010
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Ah. Remember that thing I said about taking what people say you need and translating it to what you really need to do? This to me, means lack of polish in mods. That one is gonna take awhile, I'll get to typing that on word. I think I
m gonna have alot of positive things to say actually about some of the good mods, "as polish requires you see something good and bad examples don't provide as much"
 
Oct 13, 2012 at 7:45 AM
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The question of motivation came up here, so have some feedback on that. You need to sort out in your head WHAT your motivation is in it's purest form. For the vast majority of the people here, this is a hobby. A bunch of projects initiated and inspired by the original Cave Story. A hobby is only fit for purpose so long as it amuses you, for that is what a hobby is. If a hobby outlives that purpose, you're kidding yourself. Do what you do because you want to do it, not because yoru knee deep in it and don't know what else to do with yourself. You don't owe anyone anything, so as long as we're operating under "hobby" make damn sure you're actually enjoying yourself and there arent things you'd rather do.

Motivation is like pride in a sense. My nepehew recently had a question for me about pride. He was asking me why i was quite obviously proud to be a "brony" because he felt that it was a potentially embarrasing matter. He wanted to know where my pride came from because he isnt as proud of aspects of his life he indulged in. It took me a while to think on this, but i got an answer for him. In the "brony" example I said that neo sincerity and light heartedness are a welcome break from all the dreary, sarcastic, mean spirited junk we get these days. I also brought up points like the amazing creative people in the community and other things, basically telling him what made me "proud".

The conclusion was simple and brings me to my point. To have pride, you have to be proud of something. In the same way, to have motivation, you have to be motivated by something. Identify what makes your proud or motivates you and revel in it. If you have nothing to be proud of or have no motivation, you have the wrong hobby. The latter was my realisation.
 
Oct 13, 2012 at 2:33 PM
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What I'd like to know is what you all think the development subforum should be about. Originally it was created as a place for people to post mods without being forced to provide a beta release (as is the rule in Showcase), but that's rarely an actual issue. If we demand that somebody have something to show for themselves before making a thread, it may as well be posted in the showcase to begin with. Help with game editing all takes place in what is now General Discussion, leaving little else to talk about aside from asking for or sharing mod ideas. The best use I think it has now is as a place for discussion of modding that isn't directly related to scripting or assembly, but there doesn't seem to be much general interest in that.
 
Oct 13, 2012 at 5:44 PM
I don't anymore.
"I'm sorry Mario, but your princess is in another castle."
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Hm... I think we might be able to improve on alot of mods if people started posting little snippets here while the mods were young. Maybe if we encourage a few people to start doing it, more will take on the habit of having peer review done.

I do suppose this particular area is a bit odd in discussion. The questions thread removes most possible discussion points, and everything else is an asm hack or tool, which is fine still. I want to try and post like this to get people to stop thinking about just technical aspects of modding, but that's just me still. There might just be evolutions in discussion as well, in which case this is just a natural state. Regardless, I would like to see early peer review encouraged, and even get more uses out of these sub forums.

EDIT: Post is updated, Go check it out boys and girls.
 
Oct 13, 2012 at 9:56 PM
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Ok, when i finish uploading this example of a bad mod then you'll be able to download it.
If you play the mod you'll see that you can move while there's a message on the screen.
If you open the mod you'll see that it used another mod.
 
Oct 14, 2012 at 2:12 PM
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Hm... I think we might be able to improve on alot of mods if people started posting little snippets here while the mods were young. Maybe if we encourage a few people to start doing it, more will take on the habit of having peer review done.
What sort of peer reviewing do you have in mind? Usually when mods are posted they already get some feedback, either focussed specifically on finding improvements while commenting on the positives (like I do), or the more recent Hayden-GameFAQs-style full reviews. I don't really like the idea of having a 'proper' review section for a number of reasons, if that's what you're getting at.
 
Oct 14, 2012 at 5:45 PM
I don't anymore.
"I'm sorry Mario, but your princess is in another castle."
Join Date: Aug 9, 2010
Location: Greener Pastures
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Age: 30
I was thinking basicly early peer review. Encouraging people to post a version of their mod somewhere other than the than the showcase section early on so the other modders can help them move in a positive direction. Instead of people starting off really poorly and doing so bad that even their 10 minute mod can't be salvaged. The way we approach it now, everyone treats whatever short mod things they post as set in stone because they have to go in the showcase section. I guess I want people to be more interactive so we can set higher standards. Most games and mods can only be fixed really early on after all.

EDIT: Updated again with a major thing. This one took awhile. The things I do for you people.
 
Oct 16, 2012 at 4:59 AM
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Nice work on the "Bad Writing" section. It's a pretty good crash course on creative writing and writing stories for games, and I think this is something that is important to focus on. An interesting and well written story can make a mediocre game/mod worth playing, and really bring you into a good one.
It's something I think I need to put more conscious effort into, because it's important to me in games.
 
Oct 16, 2012 at 5:40 AM
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Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes @ the writing addition. That was badly needed and lots of people need to read that. Nice linking in of descriptions of the hero's journey, and I think Extra Credits does an extremely good job at presenting the facts and features of it.

In Medias Res doesn't work with every single story, but it's often good. Like, story wise, Cave Story doesn't work on In Medias Res, but it kind of does gameplay wise, if that makes sense? I remember Pixel saying he wanted to make it so that the player controls the character from the get go without any exposition before hand, citing that players want the gameplay first and the story second, not the other way around (as many games do with exposition dumps/star wars style 'scrolling text' before the story).
 
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