• Hey everyone happy Christmas Eve we're aware of what's happened with the source code so to keep this simple absolutely don't post it on the site or use it to make mods with (it's not particularly preferable toward this end anyway) and tread lightly in general until we see how this settles, thanks to all and have a great holiday season -DT

Agora's Legends ~ Minnasan no Monogatari

Apr 9, 2008 at 11:56 PM
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S. P. Gardebiter said:
Every mod and clone is illegal, if you haven't got the permission from the author.

It's all about permission, credit and freedome :mad:
I don't want to quote myself on this but I am lazy:
andwhyisit said:
As far as I am aware:
11. Pixel was completely fine with mods, ports and translations.
12. Pixel made it clear that he did not want his game to be open source.
So as long as it is not open source you can mess around with its innards (creating mods) all you want, but it cannot be open source.
 
Apr 10, 2008 at 12:53 AM
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This project is not about "messing around with its innards", though, it's about rewriting it from the ground up. That's not illegal, if done right. Linux is a legal clone of Unix (which is not free or open source as far as I know), for example.

andwhyisit said:
If you created an open source clone for a current game you would be sued instantly by the company. So no, it does not make a difference whether it is a clone or not.
It does depend on exactly what you mean by "clone". See Wikipedia.
 
Apr 10, 2008 at 1:54 AM
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Celtic Minstrel said:
This project is not about "messing around with its innards", though, it's about rewriting it from the ground up. That's not illegal, if done right. Linux is a legal clone of Unix (which is not free or open source as far as I know), for example.

It does depend on exactly what you mean by "clone". See Wikipedia.
Agora is meant to be a perfect clone (when it is finished) of cave story, the only difference is the extent in which you can create mods for it, and not just any mods, these are mods that can be used on any platform there is an Agora Legends executable made for. But I am getting off track here. The point is that Agora will look like, feel like and for all intents and purposes "be" cave story. Releasing this as open source would be counted as theft pure and simple because it would be stealing from Pixel.

I will not argue this any further since JTE has obviously made his choice and we most likely drove him away from the forum with this argument.

p.s. When I said "messing around with its innards" I was referring to mods, saying that Pixel was fine with us making mods but doesn't want his source code to be released.
 
Apr 10, 2008 at 1:27 PM
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andwhyisit said:
So as long as it is not open source you can mess around with its innards (creating mods) all you want, but it cannot be open source.

Mods are always open source, since they were made with reverse engineering and every hacker can look at the changes made.

And Pixel said NEVER that he is okay with mods. He just gave permission to some people. He would never support you or anything if you like to make an editor. Plus ports are slightly different from mods and clones.
 
Apr 10, 2008 at 4:19 PM
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Oh boy...

andwhyisit said:
Celtic Minstrel said:
A clone does not need to be closed-source just because the thing it's a clone of is closed-source.
4. What the hell is the point of open-source when everything can be modded without even touching the exe.
* Portability
* Bug fixes
* Oh wait, everything can't be changed without programming.
andwhyisit said:
9. There are many free programs/games out there that are not open source yet nobody complains about them.
I'm sure many want them to be open source - do you think you can get everything by complaining?
andwhyisit said:
10. CAVE STORY IS NOT OPEN SOURCE YET NOBODY COMPLAINS ABOUT IT EITHER!
I sure wish it was, but I'm not complaining since I know Pixel can't read English ;)

andwhyisit said:
Celtic Minstrel said:
A Cave Story clone is not Cave Story, therefore it is not subject to those rules. It may look and feel and sound like Cave Story, but it still is not Cave Story. Therefore, it's possible for it to be open source, if the developer so desires (which he apparently does not...).
What if you changed just one thing in cave story and claimed you made it? By your logic this seems to be legal. One company can sue another over over their logo looking the same. SP can flame someone over their sprites looking like his. Where the hell is the logic behind your argument?
In the software world, cloning a work is radically different from directly copying one. JTE can claim that she made Agora, she could make changes to it, open source it, sell it, and still do that because she's the one who made it, even though it is a clone of the cave story engine.

andwhyisit said:
Agora is meant to be a perfect clone (when it is finished) of cave story, the only difference is the extent in which you can create mods for it, and not just any mods, these are mods that can be used on any platform there is an Agora Legends executable made for. But I am getting off track here. The point is that Agora will look like, feel like and for all intents and purposes "be" cave story. Releasing this as open source would be counted as theft pure and simple because it would be stealing from Pixel.
If it was illegal to clone software, it wouldn't matter whether it was open source or not. Cloning software is not illegal, you can see it everywhere; Windows and Macintosh cloned Xerox' user interface, Linux is a clone of Minix (a Unix flavour), how many clones do you think there are of DOS?
I think you've been misguided by U.S lawyer's habits of stretching the laws to fit their wallets. Heck, even reverse engineering is legal in most countries.

I completely support and agree with Celtic Minstrel here.

S. P. Gardebiter said:
Mods are always open source, since they were made with reverse engineering and every hacker can look at the changes made.
No, disassembled machine code is not considered to be the "source", the original code is.
An extreme example is if I was making something in x86 assembly, compiled it, released a binary blob and claimed it was open source because one could disassemble it. By your logic, every program is open source. :)
 
Apr 10, 2008 at 11:35 PM
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One last point for the sake of it:
Agora still uses resources (pbms, maps, orgs), story and gameplay,etc. lifted from cave story, that makes Pixel the co-creator, even more so that it credits both Pixel and JTE. As such JTE would still require Pixel's permission if he wanted to release the source.

I cannot convince you guys with anything though because you are so utterly stubborn. You can either pester JTE about it until he decides to drop the project out of annoyance or you can just wait till he releases Agora as freeware and ask JTE to lend you the source so that you can port it, keeping in mind that you cannot distribute the source without permission. Pixel got along fine with doing this and it was ported across to several platforms without the source code being released to anyone but the programmers who ported it. JTE also can do the bug fixes himself.

cookie said:
No, disassembled machine code is not considered to be the "source", the original code is.
An extreme example is if I was making something in x86 assembly, compiled it, released a binary blob and claimed it was open source because one could disassemble it. By your logic, every program is open source. :confused:
Seconded.
 
Apr 11, 2008 at 12:29 AM
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andwhyisit said:
As such JTE would still require Pixel's permission if he wanted to release the source.

Of course not, the source is (C) by JTE and not by Pixel.
Only the images. And you don't have to release the images within the source.
 
Apr 11, 2008 at 6:54 AM
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Well he is not releasing the source and I am glad about that. Despite how many times you guys twist logic your way I feel that releasing the source code can only end very badly. I put myself in the position of Pixel and am horrified. Open source programs have been known to become closed source after certain people change only a couple of things and claim that they made it.

Bloody hell! With any other site someone would ask about releasing the source once, the developer refuses and no-one questions why or brings it up after that.
 
Apr 12, 2008 at 4:11 AM
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Look at it this way. I use only Cave Story's data folder, as well as my own additional data, which remains completely seperate.

This is equal to using the original Doom wad with ZDoom, the commercial Doom wad still being NOT free-to-use (which is why Project FreeDoom exists in the first place) but the source code and engine to ZDoom being completely rewritten from scratch in C++ (as far as I am aware).

The code that I wrote and the data that I made is subject to my terms. The data from Pixel's game is still Pixel's, and I have not modified it or claimed it to be my own in any way, I have not even included it in any downloads thus far, so you still have to get it from Pixel's game in order to use my engine at all.

That is it. That's all there is to it. End all. The reason my game should or should not be open source lies in the libraries I use, most notably SDL, FMOD, and Lua. Nothing to do with Pixel's wishes whatsoever.

... The only thing that goes against this is the music having been ripped from the exe and included, which was necessary because information on how to use it while embedded in the exe is scarce, and the sound effects being included in wav format, the legality of which I'm a bit sketchy on because they are not in their original form.

... ... ...

As for the portability of mods, you should be able to simply take the data folder from your mod, stick your modified Doukutsu.exe in it, name it after your mod, put it in your AGL mods folder, and run Agora.exe -mod Whatever. It won't immediately be fully playable, of course, but it should at least generate the proper map headers. You still need to add config.lua, containing the map, position, health, event, etc. that you start on.

As an example, in the case of Boss Rush, my config.lua currently looks like:
Code:
start.map = 13
start.x = 10
start.y = 8
start.dir = 2
start.event = 200
start.health = 3
title.music = 36

But start.map can also be a file name, and there are a couple more parameters than that (for the intro and title screen) which were omitted for being unnecessary. (And the title screen music is just cool. :3)

Of course, only the first boss has any AI at the moment, and nearly all of the minor enemies beyond the (mimiga) graveyard also lack AI and animation data as well, so there's not much point in porting mods in UNLESS YOU WANT TO HELP ME WITH THAT, as I have already asked, instead of arguing over the meaningless source code of the game which does little more than load and run the ETE and Lua files.
 
Apr 12, 2008 at 1:05 PM
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Echidna-san said:
UNLESS YOU WANT TO HELP ME WITH THAT

I asked you for help on a costum boss, but you didn't helped me. :/
 
Apr 12, 2008 at 10:28 PM
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What are you talking about and why do you still spell "custom" wrong? If you're gonna spell it the way it sounds, why not "custum" instead?
 
Apr 13, 2008 at 10:24 AM
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JTE is asking for help, not asking whether you wanted help.
 
Apr 13, 2008 at 12:10 PM
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jcys810 said:
JTE is asking for help, not asking whether you wanted help.

Ok.

[SARCASM]Look at me, I need help! But I'm not going to explain how it works towards you, allthough I know it! HAHA, YOU NEED TO TEACH IT YOURSELF![/SARCASM]

Echidna-san said:
What are you talking about and why do you still spell "custom" wrong? If you're gonna spell it the way it sounds, why not "custum" instead?

Oh, nice try starting a hare JTE.
 
Apr 13, 2008 at 2:23 PM
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Echidna-san said:
UNLESS YOU WANT TO HELP ME WITH THAT
S.P. said:
I asked you for help on a costum boss, but you didn't helped me. :/
...
[SARCASM]Look at me, I need help! But I'm not going to explain how it works towards you, allthough I know it! HAHA, YOU NEED TO TEACH IT YOURSELF![/SARCASM]
Why do you need to be sarcastic?

I don't even know what the hell is going on anymore.

Could be my head injury..

brbsuicide

edit - bax.

i fail'd.

hard.
 
Apr 14, 2008 at 1:47 AM
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S. P. Gardebiter said:
Ok.

[SARCASM]Look at me, I need help! But I'm not going to explain how it works towards you, allthough I know it! HAHA, YOU NEED TO TEACH IT YOURSELF![/SARCASM]



Oh, nice try starting a hare JTE.
Seriously, what the fuck is your problem. :p
 
Apr 14, 2008 at 1:52 AM
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andwhyisit said:
Seriously, what the fuck is your problem. :p
im confused, are they just making fun of eachother?
i think ill just stay out of this..
 
Apr 14, 2008 at 2:03 AM
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andwhyisit said:
Seriously, what the fuck is your problem. :p

Ok. Help me with assembly hacking please, it's my own ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE! PLEASE DO IT! IT'S SO MUCH WORK I'M DOING THIS ALL ALONE! ;_;

But I won't tell you how to assembly hack. You have to learn it yourself OK? You're dumb because you can't learn it.

Bye.
 
Apr 14, 2008 at 4:28 AM
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S. P. Gardebiter said:
Ok. Help me with assembly hacking please, it's my own ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE! PLEASE DO IT! IT'S SO MUCH WORK I'M DOING THIS ALL ALONE! ;_;

But I won't tell you how to assembly hack. You have to learn it yourself OK? You're dumb because you can't learn it.

Bye.
How is this anything to do with Agora?

I can learn it, I just haven't because I have lacked the time to do so. :p


It has occurred to me that you could have been joking in any one of those posts and I could have taken it seriously. You do have a habit of sounding serious when you are joking.
 
Apr 14, 2008 at 9:04 AM
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Eheh, this topic has turned into my signature.

How's the project going? Also I prefer the stupid version.
 
Apr 14, 2008 at 12:55 PM
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Instead of being offended you people should try to read between the lines.
 
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