So I started a hack.

Posts / day = free time. I guess Im suddenly really busy. Caveoholic are u trying to pick a fight with runelancer or something? If so lets try and keep friendly, if not sorry about this post.

Rune I too look forward to the next update. Do u have any estimate on how long it'll be before the next release?

 

no I just think it's a little odd for him to be really busy & be able to post an average of 6.5 times a day

 

It's not that hard to type six posts.

 

Rune I too look forward to the next update. Do u have any estimate on how long it'll be before the next release?

I was supposed to move back to my appartment at the start of the week, but various things came up. At the moment I'm not sure when I'll be able to do that, but it shouldn't be much longer (legal crap, court, etc..)

I'm holding back until I know when I'll go back so that the next release can have as much new stuff as possible in it (seeing as I won't have internet access for a few weeks.) Originally I was only going to have a single new area, but I'm putting the finishing touches on a second and have added a second custom weapon, so it's not all that bad.

It's not that hard to type six posts.

Indeed, that's... what, 10 minutes top? Are you worried I might be overexerting myself, Caveoholic? If it'll put your mind (and this issue, oh-so important as it may be) to rest, yes, I can set aside at least 10 minutes each day to work on stuff.

You don't have to lay awake at night wondering if I'm still up, busily getting work done at the detriment of my own health anymore.

 

the door out of the lower left house in village of sinners <TRA's you to the wrong map

 

That's been fixed a long while back after someone pointed it out. Thanks for bringing it up though.



Little teaser.

 

Yay for screenshots.

Edit: Allrighty! I've created double-jump boots instead of the Booster 0.8. 2.0 is intact. What these do is, you jump, and as you fall, you hit jump again and will jump a second time mid-air. If you hit jump too soon, you'll wiff the jump and it'll create a small puff of smoke without giving you a boost. You can also trigger it while falling off from a ledge - this will allow me to create tricky jumps where the player has to fall under something without jumping, then double-jump onto a platform or something like that.

Fighting bosses with this little toy is great fun.

 

Demo time.

There are two levels, two new weapons, a few new enemies, and various changes to the game mechanics (including, at the end of the demo, the double-jump boots.)

I realized the manual was a little out of date after uploading the file, but whatever. Before anyone asks, the demo ends after you get the boots. There is nothing to do past that point. It lasts a good half hour if you know what you're doing.

Grab it here.

I'm using my own tools to edit the executable because Sue's Workshop has left me dissatisfied with its many holes (the boss bug being the worst problem I can think of.) Because of all the code re-writes, data relocation, and because it's been edited by my own tools, it is VERY unlikely that any editor will be able to edit it anymore. Don't be surprised if Sue's Workshop complains - it wouldn't open it anymore for me. :x Highly unsurprising: I've relocated both map and event pointers in order to give myself more space in the executable.

Enjoy! Next release in a week or two I guess.

 

The save points seem very few and far between..which is HIGHLY annoying when going from a boss to the save. I also feel like I'm playing a low HP run..seeing how everything does like 3, 5-10 damage and I only have 8 HP.'

Another wierd thing, the flying things in the factory cannot hurt you. I dunno if this was intentional or not.

I'm still trying to get past the jellyfish boss thing...I can beat it sometimes but get killed on the way back to the far away save point because my HP is so pitiful by the time the boss is done. *edit* Finally beat the damn thing....ugh that was frustrating.

Another thing, some enemies seem incapable of dropping Hearts, I swear I haven't seen one in an hour.

*another edit*

Tunnel done, dunno what to do now..

 

There were indeed some small problems with the NPC.tbl file - I mistakenly uploaded the wrong one. Here's the correct version - replace the current one by this one and the experimental tweaks I had forgotten to remove will be fixed. Thanks for bringing those problems up.

Some enemies are, indeed, incapable of dropping hearts. The cannons only drop experience because they can't follow the regular "death" event in order to break down the way they do. It could be fixed if there's enough demand, but the jellyfishes drop health in the event of an emergency. That section isn't meant to be one where you can sit around and gather resources, though. (You missed a health pickup if you have 8 hp after the tunnel, by the way.)

The save point is hardly any far from the boss (assuming you mean the tunnel; the old factory's isn't very far into the stage, but it's a very easy stage so it's a moot point..) It's roughly a screen and a half away. Unless you throw yourself at everything you see, it's difficult to lose any health along the remainder of the way. >"< To boot, there are 3 save points in that area (two of which have a health recovery entity,) which is quite generous IMO.

And yes, the jellyfishes are the hardest part of the hack. But like the other two bosses there's a simple trick to beating them. Have the Ion Device at level 3 and fire as many shots as you can before getting out of the way to avoid getting crushed. At this point it's easier to continue fighting in the water. The ledges often protect you from a diving jellyfish as well (though it's not something you should rely on.) I lose between 4-5 hp in that fight, tops. I had a hard time but now I can beat them all the time unless I get really unlucky.

Someone mentionned using the rock cannon at level 3 and firing at them constantly. This didn't work at all for me (I died before any of them could) but perhaps it might work better for you. I still say the Ion Device is the best (protip: it can also take out cannons without you having to place yourself in harm's way most of the time, too! The rock cannon does have a longer reach than them at level 3 though, if you power it up that far.) but the rock cannon's rate of fire and range could allow you to keep out of the water and away from the jellies, I suppose.

Edit: There's an item sparkly near the entrance of the tunnel, once you beat it. If it's too easy to miss, I could have an event where attention is called over to that spot. After getting it, it should be obvious where you need to use this item based on its description (unless you breezed through the hack and skipped everything in the factory - I'd hardly be surprised if anyone would find the hack difficult after skipping the ion device!)

Edit 2: I watered down the tunnel (*snicker*) and the jelly fight somewhat, and made the health capsule give slightly more health. It doesn't get any easier than this. Grab it here.

 

Some enemies are, indeed, incapable of dropping hearts. The cannons only drop experience because they can't follow the regular "death" event in order to break down the way they do. It could be fixed if there's enough demand, but the jellyfishes drop health in the event of an emergency. That section isn't meant to be one where you can sit around and gather resources, though. (You missed a health pickup if you have 8 hp after the tunnel, by the way.)

Yeah I knew I had misses some HP, the first one before the flooded tunnel..where the fake one is somewhere. I don't think I can return there though seeing how I have no air tank now.

The save point is hardly any far from the boss (assuming you mean the tunnel; the old factory's isn't very far into the stage, but it's a very easy stage so it's a moot point..) It's roughly a screen and a half away. Unless you throw yourself at everything you see, it's difficult to lose any health along the remainder of the way. >"< To boot, there are 3 save points in that area (two of which have a health recovery entity,) which is quite generous IMO.

The old factory is easy I agree, but I accidently died a few times >_> (3-4) and it just seemed like such a chore to have to re-level the Ion Device..I dunno I guess I'm just too used to how the regular Cave Story has save points near all of the bosses so you don't have to walk very far if you die.

And yes, the jellyfishes are the hardest part of the hack. But like the other two bosses there's a simple trick to beating them. Have the Ion Device at level 3 and fire as many shots as you can before getting out of the way to avoid getting crushed. At this point it's easier to continue fighting in the water. The ledges often protect you from a diving jellyfish as well (though it's not something you should rely on.) I lose between 4-5 hp in that fight, tops. I had a hard time but now I can beat them all the time unless I get really unlucky.

I had the Ion Device level 3 every time I fought them...it's just REALLY hard to dodge them for very long and it seems like I got lucky when I actually beat them. The water complicates things more cause it slows you down and makes it even harder to dodge them. Also it seemed like for some reason I didn't get invincibility when I was fighting them after getting hit..I dunno if that's true or not, I just remember a couple times getting hit for -5 and then right off the bat again and died and it'd say -10

Someone mentionned using the rock cannon at level 3 and firing at them constantly. This didn't work at all for me (I died before any of them could) but perhaps it might work better for you. I still say the Ion Device is the best (protip: it can also take out cannons without you having to place yourself in harm's way most of the time, too! The rock cannon does have a longer reach than them at level 3 though, if you power it up that far.) but the rock cannon's rate of fire and range could allow you to keep out of the water and away from the jellies, I suppose.

Another weapon? I guess I got some searching to do...I seem to miss too much (I is dum).

Edit: There's an item sparkly near the entrance of the tunnel, once you beat it. If it's too easy to miss, I could have an event where attention is called over to that spot. After getting it, it should be obvious where you need to use this item based on its description (unless you breezed through the hack and skipped everything in the factory - I'd hardly be surprised if anyone would find the hack difficult after skipping the ion device!)

Edit 2: I watered down the tunnel (*snicker*) and the jelly fight somewhat, and made the health capsule give slightly more health. It doesn't get any easier than this. Grab it here.

I guess I'll check it out then.

 

I don't see any sparkly near the entrance to the tunnel...

 

the thing about water taking away your health is flawed because you don't regain you health when you resurface

 

the thing about water taking away your health is flawed because you don't regain you health when you resurface

Yes, that is how it's supposed to work. Unlike, say, Mario 64 where you could use water as a health-recovery spot. This would be highly impractical in water-based areas such as the tunnel, or the later flooded section of the tunnel (where you could simply remove your air tank or suit briefly to recover your health..)

On a more technical level, there is no easy way to make a distinction between water damage and regular damage - everything goes through the same bit of code without distinction. It is unreasonable to duplicate the same (somewhat sizeable) damage-management code twice to have a recoverable water version and an unrecoverable regular version (alternatively a large amount of code could be rewritten from the ground up with that perspective in mind, which is not worthwhile effort.)

On a gameplay level, water is meant to be a double-edged sword. It's often easier to go through water in the tunnel, for instance, but without the conscequences of losing health permanently from it, there's no reason to go through the regular road unless you're really low on health.

I intend to add another kind of tile (superheated steam, think Super Metroid's superheated rooms which required the Varia suit to cross) If there's enough demand to revise the way water works, I'll build the effect with that in mind and see if I can have the water code leech from the new area-damage code I'll be writing. However recovering health while underwater isn't meant to be possible.

@Chaddy:
It's in the very first room of the tunnel. The new version draws your attention to it explicitely every time you enter the room from the right until you pick it up, once it appears. If it's not there and you've beaten the jellyfishes, I'll have a look at the script. I never had it vanish on me or not appear, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't have discovered a sequence of events that accidently sets the wrong flag.

 

Yes, that is how it's supposed to work. Unlike, say, Mario 64 where you could use water as a health-recovery spot. This would be highly impractical in water-based areas such as the tunnel, or the later flooded section of the tunnel (where you could simply remove your air tank or suit briefly to recover your health..)

On a more technical level, there is no easy way to make a distinction between water damage and regular damage - everything goes through the same bit of code without distinction. It is unreasonable to duplicate the same (somewhat sizeable) damage-management code twice to have a recoverable water version and an unrecoverable regular version (alternatively a large amount of code could be rewritten from the ground up with that perspective in mind, which is not worthwhile effort.)

On a gameplay level, water is meant to be a double-edged sword. It's often easier to go through water in the tunnel, for instance, but without the conscequences of losing health permanently from it, there's no reason to go through the regular road unless you're really low on health.

I intend to add another kind of tile (superheated steam, think Super Metroid's superheated rooms which required the Varia suit to cross) If there's enough demand to revise the way water works, I'll build the effect with that in mind and see if I can have the water code leech from the new area-damage code I'll be writing. However recovering health while underwater isn't meant to be possible.

there is still a lot of water that you could drown in before you are able to surface making going the normal way much easier even if resurfacing from water recovered your health

instead you could make an air meter thats directly proportional to your dry land health but doesn't actually affect it

it is unrealistic to make holding your breath physically damaging

and damage done by superheated steam shouldn't be recoverable

 

Yes. But it's also unrealistic to get shot in the face with a fireball and to keep running and jumping around afterwards.

Games are not meant to be realistic otherwise the gameplay would suffer tremendously. Take, for instance, Final Fantasy VII: in the opening, you square off against armed guards who repeatedly shoot you at very close range. If the game were realistic, you'd die before even raising your oversized sword and the game would end there. However since getting hit by the blunt end of a rifle is more painful than taking a hail of bullets to the chest in the FF7 world, the game can place you in more exciting battles. Another example is the classic "touching an enemy hurts you" syndrome: realistically speaking, there's no reason why you'd get hurt touching a frog (in fact, you'd be more likely to squish it, especially if you're a robot designed for combat; frogs are less dense than a battle-ready machine is, I would hope.) This little rule exists because it adds a degree of challenge to the game and gives the developper more control over their means of challenging the player.

So while it may not be realistic to lose health after being submerged for a certain period of time, it remains a means of controlling which challenges the player faces and encourages him to take the normal road through the level.

Like I said, however, I do intend to bring about some changes to the system if it's too serious of an issue to make the hack enjoyable - I take constructive criticism to heart if it's reasonable, and revising the way water works is something I'd consider reasonable. My intentions, however water ends up behaving, are to kill off a player trying to hide underwater for too long, and to punish a player relying on water too much (ie, no hiding from the jellyfishes in the water until the last possible moment, or taking the easy way out by "swimming" under the smaller platforms.)

Keep in mind that the game only offers 4 forms of punishment: losing weapon energy, health, ammo, or dying. Dying instantly when you were just fine a second ago seems even more unrealistic to me than progressively losing health, but that's just my view on this.

 

it's different with water water isin't supposed to hurt you at all unless you drown it's not like water is a guy progressively whacking you in the head with a sledge hammer until your dead

you still could discourage too much reliance on the water without sustaining permanent injuries from getting wet

have the players ability to hold his breath for a certain lenth of time be affected by his dry land health proportionaly (if health is 10 then air is 10 if health is 5 then air is 5)
someone who is worn out from dry land injuries wouldn't be able to hold his breath as long as he could if he wasn't injured

is there supposed to be people talking to you through the bookshelves in grant's house?

 

I like that idea, but it doesn't offer any incentive to stay out of the water because there's no in-between penalties; just extremes (ie, either you're alive one moment and absolutely fine, or game over the next.) Although using the amount of health lost (so that low-hp runs don't become impossible) as a variable of sorts is a good idea.

I've always viewed health as a means of representing your stamina and awareness (for instance, in an RPG, getting "hit" by a sword is more like your character putting effort and energy into dodging the attack, parrying it, and otherwise avoiding certain death through whatever efforts they can muster.) Water may not be like getting smashed by someone with a claw hammer, but it's still an obstacle that saps your strength and when you're out of breath and totally disoriented from nearly drowning, there's no reasonable way you could make it out of a flurry of gunshots like if you were full of energy and awareness. Of course this comes back to you as you catch your breath, but it isn't instantenious and a stage lasts, what, 4-5 minutes give or take? My impression is that it's safe to assume you wouldn't catch your breath immediately.

I could look into means of keeping a second "damage" counter when I get home. If you feel recovering health lost solely from the water progressively after you're out would be good, I feel that's a decent compromise if it doesn't mean turning the game engine upside-down (which it could - free memory when you're dealing with machine code is a myth. I'll need a lot of work-arounds to even keep track of what's water damage and what's not.) If it doesn't prove to be a total mess to hack, I'll even try to influence the loss/recovery rate by how much health the player has remaining. The biggest of my concerns is being able to tell water damage apart from the regular damage, as like I've said before the code makes no distinction of either when removing health, and I'm definately not making it recover all of your health when you pop out of the water.

 

you could make the amount of time needed to catch your breath equal to the time it took to louse it underwater minus 1/3

or couldn't you just modify the original count down from 100 to go slower & be proportionate to the player's current amount of health?

 

I'm home right now, and took a quick look at the code. It seems like it would be reasonably feasible to do the health regain thing, but I'll have to borrow one of the offsets reserved for in-game event flags to do so. No biggie, all in all.

Unfortunately I won't be able to write the code in question until later this evening since I have to go out for a bit. But once I get something that works up, I'll post it.

@Chaddykins:
I'm talking about the one right...

...here. (Been meaning to get a screenshot of it, but I wasn't at home..)