Jenka's Nightmare - Done. *mic drop* [3.0.1.0]

Thanks. I'll fix these this weekend.



Admittedly, it was sort of an oversight at first. While I put in the teleporter shortcut for speed-run purposes, I somehow forgot that you could just use it for the secret room until a while later, and sort of left it in until the DANGERZONE stream did it. It also sort of makes the teleporter puzzle completely redundant, so this is a minor attempt to fix that, too.

Besides, the Secret Rooms were always meant to be difficult to get to, in one way or another. It isn't much of a sequence break if you can just casually walk there.

Point taken. At least I'm good at damage jumping.

 

I feel like Monster X is a lot easier than Shmitz's version, probably because the gauntlet is shorter, has less parts where you actually need to be riding, and has less spikes that can hit you while riding. It should, IMO, be quite a bit harder if it's to be worth a medal.

 

I could just remove that medal, I guess? I mean it does nothing, and whether or not you beat up X doesn't matter anyway.

 

What, the <MIM hack? It's a pretty easy hack to apply. I could do it for you if you wanted.
I've also found that trying to use the actual <MIM command doesn't work out well (even though it seems like it should) so I can tell you how to use the relevant flags to manually change the image.
Oh, and here's the hack thread if you want to do it yourself.

I haven't ever, ever had any issues with it before, you just need to refrain from using or reassign <EQ+/<EQ-0032 or whatever number it was.

If I do implement that, I'd want to go the extra mile and add additional face pictures for Curly wearing the glasses, and an over-the-top altered ending dialog or something for shits and giggles.
And if I did all that, I'd need Sorairo Days as an .org. I do have a music slot available, after all.

It really isn't hard to do. (I'm assuming that you are playing as curly, right?) just set aside a flag and a <MIM thing and you're good to go along with the facepic.

And even if she is an NPC, it isn't hard to do either, because you can rig an NPC have a TSC equivalent to a <ITJ to some different sprites, and even throw it into pixels non-optimized code and have it fit nicely.

 

I could just remove that medal, I guess? I mean it does nothing, and whether or not you beat up X doesn't matter anyway.

Well, I'd prefer it to be harder than to remove the medal. In Shmitz's version, defeating Monster X is actually an accomplishment, because you're usually on a sliver of health after riding it to where you need to go and as such sticking around to defeat it is risky. Here, on the other hand, it's nearly trivial to ride it to the exit, and as such fairly trivial to kill it.

I feel that if this is truly going to be a "remastering", it should hit all the good points of Shmitz's original, unfinished version. One of those is its extreme-but-fair difficulty; I feel like this version isn't challenging my skills the way the original did. If you feel the need to create an easier, more accessible version, that's great, but please don't take away from those of us that want that challenge.

(Having now got up to the Genesis battle, it also seems far too easy. It may be because the Spur can be obtained before reaching it, or because there are less obstacles in the way. The battle with Genesis: Source in Shmitz's original version had difficulty commensurate with its importance, much like the Core in the original Cave Story. This Genesis is a total joke to kill with the Spur. Maybe the Spur should be pushed back until after Genesis and Oblivion are defeated, maybe Genesis should have a lot more health, or maybe there should be more obstacles so it's harder to get a clear shot; I'm not sure. All I can do is comment on what I see and feel.)

 

maybe Genesis should have a lot more health

oh god please no we don't need another JNR
also wow I have not seen you in forever and you probably don't even know who I am which is /really/ weird

 

The 'trivializing' bit about my version is a major flaw in the original: killing monster X before crossing the spikes, and effectively screwing yourself over. So to solve that, I made it so all the -127 spikes are removed when X is killed. Which means you can just kill him immediately and ignore the whole 'need him to cross', anyway, although using him to cross and not killing him at all would be faster for speedruns.

That aside, iirc the spike pit in the original was actually crossable with some precise key tapping with the Booster v0.8, so you could just skip it anyway. So I lengthened that pit to avoid that, and the previous paragraph to avoid getting stuck.

I made the boss itself harder in past versions, but a future boss that also happens to be monster X's AI ended up being a nightmare, especially if you fight it without the Booster v2.0.

All that aside, the corridor was almost twice as long in 2.0.0.0, and earlier versions, but someone complained about the map system glitching out, and I decided it needed some shortening.

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tl;dr I'm going to rip my hair out if everyone starts telling me the game "isn't hard enough" now.

E:

but please don't take away from those of us that want that challenge.

Wait until the end of the game.

 

oh god please no we don't need another JNR

I was one of the testers for JNR, remember?

I don't mean Possessed Curly/Oblivion 5000 health silliness, just twice as much or something. I seriously felt like the fight was too short; it died so fast (20 seconds or something; 3 or 4 Spur shots) it was an anticlimax (leaving aside the much easier-to-navigate room). The obvious ways to make a fight longer are more health, temporary invulnerability and smaller hitbox, or to reduce the player's DPS (ie, put the Spur later).

Also, the problem with Possessed Curly/Oblivion wasn't so much the health levels themselves as how little threat they posed. Genesis poses significantly more threat because of the way it's set up (though it would pose even more were it back in its proper room).

also wow I have not seen you in forever and you probably don't even know who I am which is /really/ weird

Indeed, I have no clue who you are.

The 'trivializing' bit about my version is a major flaw in the original: killing monster X before crossing the spikes, and effectively screwing yourself over. So to solve that, I made it so all the -127 spikes are removed when X is killed. Which means you can just kill him immediately and ignore the whole 'need him to cross', anyway, although using him to cross and not killing him at all would be faster for speedruns.

Why does it matter if you can screw yourself over? You can't save during that portion; the way back is blocked, and you removed the save point during the fight. So just jump on one of the death spikes and start over, and use some lateral thinking next time.

All that aside, the corridor was almost twice as long in 2.0.0.0, and earlier versions, but someone complained about the map system glitching out, and I decided it needed some shortening.

I know about the Map System problem; it's been there since the original JN. But there are other ways to fix that; the most obvious would be to split Labyrinth W into two rooms (there's a place you could split it without issues just west of the door to the Old Clinic). Call the east side Labyrinth E. Bam, no Map System glitches.

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tl;dr I'm going to rip my hair out if everyone starts telling me the game "isn't hard enough" now.

Oh, it's definitely better than JNR. I often come across as more scathing than I intend, probably because my posts tend to be lists of what I think could be improved. I'm reminded of that quote from Matrix Reloaded (shit movie, I know): "The ones doing their job, doing what they were meant to do, are invisible. You'd never even know they were here. But the other ones, well, we hear about them all the time."

What's eating me about this is that the Monster X running battle was one of my favourite things about the original JN (and, IIRC, seeing a YouTube vid of it was what first alerted me to the mod's existence). I'm probably also biased by the fact that the whole reason I picked your mod up was because I wanted to play JN again without all the alterations in JNR (I can't play Shmitz's original, because of the "crash when exiting First Cave" bug; that was the first thing fixed in JNR, but I no longer have my very old copy of JNR that only had that fix). Imagine my reaction when I find that my two favourite bits (Monster X, Genesis: Source) have been turned into Easy Modo.

E:
Wait until the end of the game.

I imagine it will be harder. But taking away a unique challenge to put in another one rubs me the wrong way; shouldn't you keep both? Or at least have an option to keep all those hard-in-a-cool-way fights?

 

I think we can both agree that dunc is like a you from the future

 

I'll compromise and consider putting back the 2.0 version of Labyrinth W, with a "No Data" map instead. Although I haven't heard anyone else's thoughts about it yet.

 

You don't have to compromise with me. It's your mod; you can do with it what you want. You should only implement my suggestions if you agree with them; I'm not some Great Dictator of Mod-dom or something.

(I probably wouldn't even be complaining if there was a copy of Shmitz's version floating around with the crash bug removed and no other alterations. But I can't find one.)

 

labyrinth was fine

 

Hmm. Is the caption in the Plantation about closing your eyes a quote? I seem to recall reading it in a book, but it's simple enough that it could be independent.

I'm also - somewhat narcissistically, but still - wondering if you knew, when making that puzzle, about the incident during JNR's development where I actually pulled off manoeuvring through the full gauntlet at the summit of Oblivion: Erosion (which LunarSoul/Doors didn't think was possible) and breaking sequence by accident.

 

Are we complaining about difficulty now ?

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Alpha was fine with all its unbreakable projectiles

But other than that the difficulty curve is very well thought imho. The spur might destroy Genesis, but I never fought it with it.

You may have loaded one of the strongest NG+ profile, magic9mushroom, try loading another one if you really want a challenge, or simply wait for Deconstructor MK2 (took me a while to beat it even with the booster 2.0).

I believe I speak for all the medium players out there by saying the mod is fine as it is now. The different "roads" open ways for both newbs and veterans alike, which is very cool. It is not a hard-type mod, and yet everybody can find a challenge up to their skills, unless you're so good at Cave Story that you should just play another game.

Again, this is just the humble opinion of a little newb.

And I think the Monster X medal is a nice touch btw

 

You may have loaded one of the strongest NG+ profile, magic9mushroom, try loading another one if you really want a challenge, or simply wait for Deconstructor MK2 (took me a while to beat it even with the booster 2.0).

No. I didn't load any NG+ profile. No Nemesis, no Turbocharger, 51 health, Final Destination.

I imagine it would be even more Easy Modo were I to load one.

I believe I speak for all the medium players out there by saying the mod is fine as it is now. The different "roads" open ways for both newbs and veterans alike, which is very cool. It is not a hard-type mod, and yet everybody can find a challenge up to their skills, unless you're so good at Cave Story that you should just play another game.

That's just it, though. Jenka's Nightmare is a hard-type mod. Have you played the original Shmitz version?

I will admit that I'm rather good at platformers; a few days ago I successfully completed a no-saves run of the original Cave Story (including Sacred Ground). But Shmitz's version of Jenka's Nightmare did actually manage to challenge me; in this version, on the other hand, there was precisely one boss that took me more than a couple of tries (Suto + King Pignon), and that was mostly because it's so hard to see anything in the last phase. Last Cave (double-Hidden) was admittedly pretty good, and Tristitia was actually cool even if it was pretty easy once you get your head around the interface (beat it on my second try).

Oh, one other thing; the amount of grinding for XP that's required in the route to the true ending is pretty excessive. Oh, well.

As I said, though, I'm mostly only griping because I can't play Shmitz's version. This is certainly still one of the best mods out there, and the story's quite interesting (not as much as Cave Story's original, but still good).

 

That's just it, though. Jenka's Nightmare is a hard-type mod. Have you played the original Shmitz version?

My mindset about that is it was intentional as something to draw in those who beat the original game, which would have been pretty close to the time when the mod was released. If you were able to beat Hell, and it was pretty much a prerequisite to play the mod if you didn't want to be bashed over the head with spoilers, then you were likely to be able to handle to mod as it existed.

However, two things have changed since then:

1) A lot of time has passed, and aside from those obsessed with the original game, nobody will have played it in years.

2) The mod is longer, and finished.

What puts me off of making it strictly a hard-type mod is the escalation, and it was something likely reached for the same reason by shmitz: there are only so many types of enemies, and adding more was at the time, and even now, very difficult to do. As a result, eventually I would reach a 'cap' to the difficulty, and the ability players would have to close the gap would gradually narrow, until the final dungeon had something ridiculous like falling blocks in a vertical climbing section.

So I took a step back and tried to fix the difficulty curve so that the final dungeon is comparatively difficult to the non-final boss as it was in the original. Everything leading up to that is more gradual, so the difficulty curve is a curve instead of a zig-zag, or a plateau.

The only exception to this is the Devil's Garden and Once-Sacred Ground, which is there specifically for those seeking a challenge at that point.

I imagine it would be even more Easy Modo were I to load one.

I have a challenge for you.

1) Beat Cave Story with none of the life capsules, and save in the Prefab House so you have only 3 hitpoints. Any weapons you want, really.

2) Load that profile into Jenka's Nightmare, and try to beat it with the resulting 1HP you'll start with.

3) Have fun!

 

That's just it, though. Jenka's Nightmare is a hard-type mod. Have you played the original Shmitz version?

Oops, my bad...

I never bothered to went past GrassTown in the original...
Don't throw rocks at me !
Zarrotsu's version was already out with an ending and very nice looking maps, so I went with it.

But yeah, if you did a no save-run of Cave Story we're clearly playing in different leagues. Sacred Ground is still a challenge for me.I gues I'll give the orignal JN another go when I'll get better. (If I get better...)

Good day to you all.

 

I have a challenge for you.

1) Beat Cave Story with none of the life capsules, and save in the Prefab House so you have only 3 hitpoints. Any weapons you want, really.

2) Load that profile into Jenka's Nightmare, and try to beat it with the resulting 1HP you'll start with.

3) Have fun!

As in, don't take any Life Capsules in JN either? Hmm, okay. Do you have a link to the list of NG+ conversions?

(I'm not sure this is actually possible; Suto's bubbles are likely even more of a bane to the minimal-HP-runner than the Core's shurikens are in the original. Has anyone before me succeeded?)


(Also, does anyone with some modding skill feel like making a debugged version of Shmitz's JN? I really want to play it again. )

 

(I'm not sure this is actually possible; Suto's bubbles are likely even more of a bane to the minimal-HP-runner than the Core's shurikens are in the original. Has anyone before me succeeded?)

I got decently far, actually. Which Suto are you talking about? The bubbler is available early on and it makes the second Suto fight trivial, although I have beaten it with just the polar star... and that was before I made those bouncing bubbles breakable.

 

I got decently far, actually. Which Suto are you talking about? The bubbler is available early on and it makes the second Suto fight trivial, although I have beaten it with just the polar star... and that was before I made those bouncing bubbles breakable.

Oh, right. Forgot that I was playing without the Snake or Bubbler so as to not drop them off the island. I was more thinking of the Suto + Great White Critter and Suto + King Pignon battles, though. Guess I'll have to try it myself.

Could I have that list of NG+ conversions?