Jenka's Nightmare - Done. *mic drop* [3.0.1.0]

If you're really upset about this, you should really try to stop. Like actually, it's not good to be so upset about something this small.

 

I know you guys have possibly dabbled in modding, maybe even contributed some major shit, but this really hurts to watch. To be told, straight-up, that I shouldn't have done it. That I shouldn't be here.

I am not impressed.

Now, I don't know who is right in this topic anymore. People have told me that this is the best mod they've ever played, including the original game and several other big mods on the forum. You can see them say this in this topic, and there are several other topics on other forums where they share this thought. "arandomgametaser", the dude who did the Ikachan TAS, was also working on Jenka's Nightmare (my version), and you can find it fairly easily on youtube. If that peaked the interest of a excellent TASer, I thought it was an excellent mod in an otherwise stagnant mod community.

Perhaps I haven't branched out far enough to really get a broad opinion of the game, or it's very likely I've been rude, brash, and immature on this forum. I cannot tolerate trolls very well, and am very easy to bait, because I do take personal offense to some things I probably shouldn't. I'd been wondering how it is people I've never seen visit this topic have called otherwise 'basic' demo mods "the best thing they've ever played", but maybe they found this mod bad too and didn't speak their mind.

But, as stated, I easily take personal offense to things like this. To call something I worked on for roughly 16 months a waste of time. To suggest that my devotion to a project I call my own was something nobody wanted, and that I'm a fool for even considering it. That I shouldn't have. That it would be better if I hadn't.

I am very acceptive of critique towards aspects of the game, and it would help a lot to be given reason why I was wrong, or guidance on how it could be done better. But in those 16 months, I received nothing. Nothing but praise or vauge complaints about the game's sequence, which really doesn't affect the difficulty when built around it. Nothing I could work with to improve the mod. For 16 months.

This was a problem I ran into when I originally left the forum, a grand total of SEVEN years ago, when I was working on "Eternal Chaos". Modding for the game was more primitive, and people were using Sue's Workshop of all things, but it was still the same. People care about a mod only as far as they can be entertained by it, and it is rare if they risk how-it-is to tell the modder how it should be, or how it could be.

I am sad.

 

Even though I think this mod is literally terrible, that fact that you did it and on this scale is something more than most people on this forum can say. You CAN do things and you can do things better than this. If you could apply this and work on something better, maybe something that belongs to you, you could potentially have something really professionally good.

Also you have no obligation to give a shit about what my friends and I say, we're just a few assholes laughing a Cave Story mod.

 

You CAN do things and you can do things better than this. If you could apply this and work on something better, maybe something that belongs to you, you could potentially have something really professionally good.

...

If nothing else, I think this is what I've wanted to hear the most.


Thank you.

 

I am very acceptive of critique towards aspects of the game, and it would help a lot to be given reason why I was wrong, or guidance on how it could be done better. But in those 16 months, I received nothing. Nothing but praise or vauge complaints about the game's sequence, which really doesn't affect the difficulty when built around it. Nothing I could work with to improve the mod. For 16 months.

I'm going to take this opportunity to say something super important: I'm sorry.
I was immature when you started this project. I initially wanted you to succeed - Jenka's Nightmare was and is my favorite mod ever made. I even offered my help, but when you declined, instead of just moving on, I got angry. I got angry and even worse, hateful. I hated you. All because you declined a total stranger's offer of help. It really was stupid of me. And then whenever you did something I didn't like, I yelled at you. Instead of explaining my reasons, I got mad at you and started arguing stupidly. Just a couple posts ago, I gave a calm explanation of why I thought the emptiness of Sky made sense. Why wasn't I able to do that back then? I still don't like the changed order of events. I still wish that the Outer Core could have been a thing, that unmade map in the files of the original. But the thing is, the only person I really have to blame for this mod not turning out as I wanted is me.

I should have played your early demos. I should have been kinder to you. But I wasn't, and the mod (in my opinion) suffered for it.

I hope that you can forgive me.

 

Wow. This game is one of the best games I have ever played. Don't let anyone tell you it is bad. It is amazing.

 

*watches video*

Oh god, shame levels, rising.

Yeah, I've handled the credit pictures and some other minor spriting(Most notably the final boss). Unfortunately, I'm not especially proficient at the whole drawing thing. I've basically opened the original credits, ripped the color palette and tried to draw something halfaway similar to the original.

If there's no consistency between Quote in the various shots, it's because drawing Quote consistently is really hard, you guys. Still better than just leaving original credits in, I'd argue.

 

I wouldn't be shamed or whatever. I really liked your art, though there were a bunch of things that could be improved upon, like perspective as Matt said. Of course, I'm not good enough at drawing to do any better but that's what I feel anyway.

Matt's kind of an honest critic from what I've seen, if you can improve upon something he won't hesitate to say it. Which is good - it helps you improve. It's just sometimes negative feedback hurts.

 

You're really good at some things and not so much at others. IT happens. I can't draw for shit either so don't worry. Ignore my tone, it was a very casual stream.

 

EDIT: Its been like 2 years now, but I can't remember you asking to help with the mod at all. Maybe you did, but any reason I would have said 'no' is because I had all my bases covered. It's not that I wouldn't accept the help, but that I didn't need it to complete the mod. And I probably didn't know what kind of help would have been offered, but you are in the credits dude, so... Yeah, you did help.

So I didn't notice this edit until now.
This was the first post I made offering to help. I believe I made one other in this thread, but it wasn't as obvious. Looking back, I don't think you ever actively declined the offer - you just either ignored or didn't notice it. Regardless, I got mad because of it. Also looking back at my post offering to help oh god I am so sorry I am such a hypocrite fuck

 

Alright, so I felt like crap all day because I was up until like 5 am the other night watching the stream and typing the above and wound up only getting like three hours of sleep because the jackass across the street from where I live likes to do machine welding at 8am on a holiday. So no update yet regarding the fireball and null-exp bug.

However, I've thought about the mod as a whole, and about the parts of it that are bad ideas. So my checklist of things to change/improve are as follows:

Spoiler

1) Remove the Pignon note fetch quest for the Spur. This only really exists as needless busywork intended to keep you from using a weapon that is, while slower-charging, still pretty much the best one in the game. However, "running around places you were already, again" is a terrible idea for a softlock on obtaining the weapon. It only really existed to prevent you from getting the Spur with the Booster v0.8, but that's hardly an excuse.


2) Remove the Nemesis and Blade NG+ capsules. This will free up the Arms Barrier, which will make the game far less tedious if obtainable by anyone, at any time. I'm not 100% sure where I'll put it, and am open for suggestions.


3) Split up life capsules a bit more. I'm going to remove the life capsule in Void nobody ever finds because they don't have the map system, and cut a point of life on a +5 somewhere to make two +3's. I'll put one in Grass Town and one in Eroding Valve.


4) Remove weapon requirement on the Bubbler chests. This will allow you to pick it up in the Eroding Valve - however, I'm going to move the ammo chest to where the Pignon note was so you need to Booster v0.8 to get it (to break up the time you can get it between the blade and missile launcher and all that junk).


5) Nerf the 2nd Suto fight. Nightmare-fuel: His bouncing orbs were originally intangible to bullets in the earlier demos.

 

Darn... with only the glitch issue left to fix and no other bugs to find, now you are going to make new changes to the game (if for the better).

I would then have to test extensively on the next version you release for any new bugs that could be left out on your new changes. However, it IS better for yourself to test extensively before you release, minimizing the chances of having new bugs found by me.

 

Another thing I'm thinking about is the Map System. I know the thing is a pretty substantial joke and part of the game/original game (extending the 'not working' schtick to the too-big-to-render map, and the all-rooms-look-the-same-like-a-rendering-glitch map), but I believe a stream complaint was not having it when it would have been heavily appreciated, ie. Grasstown and Sand Zone.

So this is more a question for Dunc/Doors/Matt and anyone else who enjoyed the original game: Should I give up the "broken map system" jokes and just put the thing in Mimiga Village somewhere?

 

I think it's worth it. It's not like the jokes were super important or anything, and having it earlier would be a great help to people getting lost throughout the game.

 

Yeah do that. Your maps are huge.

 

Try doing the same way you did in

Spoiler

Super Secret Room

. Activate a flag upon entering Labyrinth W and de-equip Map System, on examining the Map System, message reads "No Data."

Upon leaving through any door in the map, check for Map System, then re-equip it and deactivate the flag.

 

Alright, so I felt like crap all day because I was up until like 5 am the other night watching the stream and typing the above and wound up only getting like three hours of sleep because the jackass across the street from where I live likes to do machine welding at 8am on a holiday. So no update yet regarding the fireball and null-exp bug.

However, I've thought about the mod as a whole, and about the parts of it that are bad ideas. So my checklist of things to change/improve are as follows:

Spoiler

1) Remove the Pignon note fetch quest for the Spur. This only really exists as needless busywork intended to keep you from using a weapon that is, while slower-charging, still pretty much the best one in the game. However, "running around places you were already, again" is a terrible idea for a softlock on obtaining the weapon. It only really existed to prevent you from getting the Spur with the Booster v0.8, but that's hardly an excuse.


2) Remove the Nemesis and Blade NG+ capsules. This will free up the Arms Barrier, which will make the game far less tedious if obtainable by anyone, at any time. I'm not 100% sure where I'll put it, and am open for suggestions.


3) Split up life capsules a bit more. I'm going to remove the life capsule in Void nobody ever finds because they don't have the map system, and cut a point of life on a +5 somewhere to make two +3's. I'll put one in Grass Town and one in Eroding Valve.


4) Remove weapon requirement on the Bubbler chests. This will allow you to pick it up in the Eroding Valve - however, I'm going to move the ammo chest to where the Pignon note was so you need to Booster v0.8 to get it (to break up the time you can get it between the blade and missile launcher and all that junk).


5) Nerf the 2nd Suto fight. Nightmare-fuel: His bouncing orbs were originally intangible to bullets in the earlier demos.

Spoiler

1. It didn't give me too many issues, but if you wanna do it, do it. That would leave the question, however, of WHEN the Spur will be obtainable
2. Maybe you can change the Blade's reward to a Life Capsule and the Nemesis Capsule can stay as is?
3. Perhaps you can put that +3 in Grasstown where the Pignon note was. Not sure about the Eroding Valve.
4. As long as you don't allow it to be picked up after trading it to Balrog, if applicable.
5. THANK YOU!!!!!!!

And btw, I love the mod. Don't listen to any haters. Still the best Cave Story mod I've ever played, dude.

 

Another question I have: how intrusive would it be to simply make all ammo chests give the weapon in question when you or Balrog don't have it? I'm thinking about relocating one of the Bubbler chests to where the Pignon chest is in Pipeworks, to keep that 'secret' there. Then you could pick up the Bubbler early on to help with fighting the first few bosses (and probably trivialize Suto in the process).

The only penalty for doing this, therefore, would be missing out on ammo chests after Quote's throws everything off the island like a dweeb.


However, you guys also complained about that one chest in Grasstown (which was Snake ammo, by the way, not the missile launcher) being taken away practically immediately afterward, so I'm also mixed about this. Of course, there's probably way more Bubbler ammo in the game as-is than most people probably need... Up to you guys.

I may also put in more Machine Gun ammo, since it's rather undergeared without the turbocharge.

 

Another question I have: how intrusive would it be to simply make all ammo chests give the weapon in question when you or Balrog don't have it? I'm thinking about relocating one of the Bubbler chests to where the Pignon chest is in Pipeworks, to keep that 'secret' there. Then you could pick up the Bubbler early on to help with fighting the first few bosses (and probably trivialize Suto in the process).

The only penalty for doing this, therefore, would be missing out on ammo chests after Quote's throws everything off the island like a dweeb.


However, you guys also complained about that one chest in Grasstown (which was Snake ammo, by the way, not the missile launcher) being taken away practically immediately afterward, so I'm also mixed about this. Of course, there's probably way more Bubbler ammo in the game as-is than most people probably need... Up to you guys.

I may also put in more Machine Gun ammo, since it's rather undergeared without the turbocharge.

As I stated a while back, one issue I had was that I had close to 200 machine gun ammo

Hidden text highlight (or click) to view:

before playing as Curly, including the broken capsule. When the Machine Gun was given to me when I started as Curly, the ammo was nowhere near what it was before I gave it back to Balrog.

So yeah, an ammo buff would be nice.

This may not be what you're going for, but perhaps what you can do is, as you said, have the ammo chests give you the weapon if you or Balrog don't have it, but also, when you regain the Snake (and maybe Bubbler), you can start with the ammo you had. It makes the decision of taking or leaving the weapons even easier. I save edit to get the Snake Capsule anyway, but putting myself in the shoes of people who don't do that, I'd like if I could get the Snake and Bubbler back after I lose them WITH the ammo they had before. Of course, if you can't program that, or think that's making it too easy, then do what you want.

 

I know you guys have possibly dabbled in modding, maybe even contributed some major shit, but this really hurts to watch. To be told, straight-up, that I shouldn't have done it. That I shouldn't be here.

I am not impressed.

Now, I don't know who is right in this topic anymore. People have told me that this is the best mod they've ever played, including the original game and several other big mods on the forum. You can see them say this in this topic, and there are several other topics on other forums where they share this thought. "arandomgametaser", the dude who did the Ikachan TAS, was also working on Jenka's Nightmare (my version), and you can find it fairly easily on youtube. If that peaked the interest of a excellent TASer, I thought it was an excellent mod in an otherwise stagnant mod community.

Perhaps I haven't branched out far enough to really get a broad opinion of the game, or it's very likely I've been rude, brash, and immature on this forum. I cannot tolerate trolls very well, and am very easy to bait, because I do take personal offense to some things I probably shouldn't. I'd been wondering how it is people I've never seen visit this topic have called otherwise 'basic' demo mods "the best thing they've ever played", but maybe they found this mod bad too and didn't speak their mind.

But, as stated, I easily take personal offense to things like this. To call something I worked on for roughly 16 months a waste of time. To suggest that my devotion to a project I call my own was something nobody wanted, and that I'm a fool for even considering it. That I shouldn't have. That it would be better if I hadn't.

I am very acceptive of critique towards aspects of the game, and it would help a lot to be given reason why I was wrong, or guidance on how it could be done better. But in those 16 months, I received nothing. Nothing but praise or vauge complaints about the game's sequence, which really doesn't affect the difficulty when built around it. Nothing I could work with to improve the mod. For 16 months.

This was a problem I ran into when I originally left the forum, a grand total of SEVEN years ago, when I was working on "Eternal Chaos". Modding for the game was more primitive, and people were using Sue's Workshop of all things, but it was still the same. People care about a mod only as far as they can be entertained by it, and it is rare if they risk how-it-is to tell the modder how it should be, or how it could be.

I am sad.

Criticism? If you say so.

Spoiler

The fight with Suto as Curly is a waste of time, it's almost a carbon copy of the one with Quote, and it gives the same reward.

The twist ending with The Doctor being back, though lampshaded at the beginning, felt kind of forced, and there's no indication that there's another ending if you talk to Curly after beating Jenka's Nightmare the boss.

During the fight against Tristitia (or however you spell that) I found it infuriating that you couldn't change directions until the game let you.

Now for positive criticism:

Your greatest strengths are your level design and character dialogue. I wouldn't say you had me rolling on the floor laughing or anything, but you were really good at giving people things to say, getting close to the original character, expanding on them, and making the dialogue realistic.
Your level design is very good. You took the elements that Pixel laid out for you, and sometimes ones he didn't, and improved upon almost all of them. I won't say more in case of spoilers, but very well done in regards to that.