Cave Story: Jenka's Nightmare

May 8, 2006 at 8:08 AM
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Ah, man, I wish I'd known about that trick earlier. I can't off the top of my head think of any other areas where anything like that would lead to broken continuity in plot or item acquisition, but let me know if you encounter anything more that seems out of order after riding/bouncing off enemies.
 
May 8, 2006 at 12:50 PM
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I have just gotten to first boss and did you really have to put in three were-sues with the monster? It kind of seems out of place and you could maybe put in one were-sue but you have done it really well so far. I guess it is ok that you don't have unlimited snake ammo.
 
May 8, 2006 at 10:53 PM
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Ok, i can't beat the sand zone at all. Does it have to do with the combination of teleporters? And do the puppies' barks have to do with it? If so, give me a hint. Am I looking for the puppies to have no bark at all? Does it have to do with the "gaudis eat mimigas, mimigas eat flowers..." and the "a good puppy wags his tail..."?
Help me!

EDIT: nvm, i figured it out... hmm... now lets see whats next...
 
May 8, 2006 at 11:02 PM
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I haven't gotten there but I do have an idea. Are there dogs near every teleporter or something? I think if the dogs tail is wagging then you go in that certain teleporter
 
May 9, 2006 at 2:09 AM
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Yeah, i figured that out. But now where do i go? I got the jetpack, *spoiler* read the diary *spoiler*, and pretty much am running around doing nothing. Where do i go??
 
May 9, 2006 at 2:23 AM
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The next step is similar to the first step.

Also, did you talk to the Cthulu near where you got the pack?
 
May 9, 2006 at 12:05 PM
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Once again I am not the far but why don't you go back to areas to see what items you missed like in Mimiga Village.(also the Mimiga falling off is funny as they will keep moving):)
 
May 9, 2006 at 7:51 PM
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Sorry if any of these comments have been said already. Playing through the game again and listing problems as I find them. Okay not just problems, but other thoughts I have along the way.

* You can get the fuel cell and defeat the Guadi-teers (really enjoyed them btw) before ever getting to Mimiga village. It probably isn't going to be a problem for the final game, but the flag you get is used for the "you just finished the mod" speech.
* There is a way you can fight them that dosn't give them a chance to jump off there platforms. Making the fight exceptionaly easy (even before you get to the village).
* Is there a trick to getting the life capsul in the village? Its so much work for 3 hp. Best way I've found to get it so far is to walk till your feet are touching the right edge of the block, stop, then just hold right.
* The animation after you kill Igor was very well done.
* When you use the bucket in grasstown tower, it seems to run some kinda script but, you don't know if it does anything or not. Same with the computer by Santa.
* Donno if you have tested this... but after you turn the resevoir fan on, you can make it to the left house. Just jump in the water at the right angle, and hold left.
* Whats the first place to get missle launcher? If the first one you get is in grasstown at 72,39 it dosn't give you the normal "You just got the missle launcher, its powerful but limited ammo" speach, just missles increase by 5. And now I have a sad 5 missles.
* In Genisis earth its possible to get stuck in the sand when it rises.
* The laser walls look really tight in sandzone.
* Puppy sprites are messed up... but after you go to small sactuary it gets fixed? Wierd...
* Door animation is messed up when you leave "small sactuary"

I'm taking a break now. Im sorta stuck on the puppy puzzle. It seems really intuitive, I expected something to happen when I fed Guadi, Mimiga, Flower in that order. O well, I'll figure it out.

Overall I am greatly enjoying it, good work.
 
May 9, 2006 at 8:21 PM
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Man this is fun..can't wait for more updates to it..

Although the bubbler as my primary weapon gets kinda annoying, because it delevels so easily...and I didn't find the blade(my favorite weapon by far) =(

The last boss I fought was incredibly easy, because you can boost over to an edge where they can't jump over and just continuously fire the fireball..if you were to put a barrier there it would remedy that problem.

All of the bosses were very nicely done and fun to fight!

I must have missed a lot of heart containers and stuff, I only had like 20 something HP at the end >_> not that I'm complaining, I'd rather them be well hidden and keep me wanting to find them.

I also liked having to walk to each area rather than simply teleport, I dunno why, I just do.

The Genesis/Outer Wall thing was awesome.

The only part of the game were I was getting annoyed was between Chaba's shop and going toward the next area from there, all the moving blocks kept crushing me over and over (especially the 4 right before the save point..like they're taunting me or something). The part after that (hitching a ride on so and so) was really awesome, very cool idea.

I could say more that's cool about this but there's too much really, I eagerly wait for more updates!
 
May 9, 2006 at 8:32 PM
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SeriousFace said:
* Whats the first place to get missle launcher? If the first one you get is in grasstown at 72,39 it dosn't give you the normal "You just got the missle launcher, its powerful but limited ammo" speach, just missles increase by 5. And now I have a sad 5 missles.

I see the problem. I had getting the Snake set flag 0201 so that the health/ammo refill would say that ammo was getting refilled, and not just health. I hadn't looked to see that the missile launcher event also checks flag 0201. I'll fix it to use two separate flags.

SeriousFace said:
* In Genisis earth its possible to get stuck in the sand when it rises.

Could you tell me specifically what you did, and which side it was on? I need to know if I just need to make the script faster, or have it all fill in instantly.

SeriousFace said:
* Puppy sprites are messed up... but after you go to small sactuary it gets fixed? Wierd...

Er, woops. I just found the problem. For reasons of sprite sheet conflict, I set all of the enemy sprites for Sand Zone to use sprite sheet two. However, I thought the puppies used Regu, but I was wrong, they use the SZ sheet too. I just never noticed the problem because the first sprite sheet doesn't overlap the puppy frames on the second, and my test saves always start out in small sanctuary, which for some reason "fixes" it. I've fixed it for good now.

Rest of the problems you listed are noted, and will be looked into.
 
May 9, 2006 at 10:39 PM
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Getting back to it...

* I got another Missle upgrade in sand zone, it did the "you got missle launcher" speach again.
* The life up on 4,25 (sand zone still) is bad game design tward the player imo. Because now as a player I'm going to have to search every square where there could be something, or I'll be forced to feel like I might have missed out. Though I would be lying if I told you I wan't going to hide things in the same way in my game.
* Lol first Item in my inventory is booster.8 niiiice. Did I miss the map system btw?
* After coming out of "workshop" the legs on the walking skulls are sprite glitching, the puppys too.
* When you talk to booster for the first time his body gets cut off by the diolog box... Maybe use the dialog box at the top of the screen, or maybe raise where he stand by 1 tile. Also I turned around as the cut scene with misery started... so it was funny not facing her... I'd throw a <MYD in there right after she spawns.
* Transmogrifying? I hope thats a real word lol.
* Deconstructor was too easy. After you kill one... 2 should spawn. Then 3, then that should be good :).
* The door on 8,70 (sand zone) dosn't <DNP itself. Okay... NM, it sure does, but not the first time you use it. I suppose thats because first time you use it it jumps into a cutscene. Maybe have the door open before the cutscene? Seeing as after it your in the labyrinth.
* Zomg.. You can use the unused sprites from the ending!? Holy crap I can't wait to met hated Malco, and the mimic... omg thats serious...
* You stole my idea for Monster X... O well... I snooze, I lose.
* When you get the address chip, you can skip the text, not the normal <WAI time that lets you hear the new item music.
* The map system dosn't work? Was that your cleaver doing to reenforce plot, or is there some new glitch?
* Hmmm.... is there something your sposed to do before you can fight monster X? The cat and one of the talking guidi elude to monster X not working... But for some reason I could fight him as soon as i get there...
* I take back my "you stealing my Monster X idea" you took it farther then I would have, and made it alot better. It riding on water looks a bit strange tho.
* Its also worth noting that you can skip the Monster X spawning event. You don't actually need to use the boss to get by that stretch of spikes. In fact... IMO he makes it harder (even when I poke 3 of his eyes out and leave him on his first form).
* The sitting guadi radicals are some how really cute... Its wierd that the flying one shoots you durring his speech tho, are armor guadi's dormant when you are a screen length away? I felt really bad killing that group of doods... They just wanted freedom...


Kay, Im done again for now. I'll probably go back for more tho, I do believe I missed some things. Most important thing I want to say to you Shmitz is that I am REALLY enjoying your game. I believe all my posts about your game have focused on the negative but don't take my critisms the wrong way, I'm just trying to help. I think you've done great so far with everything game design, changes, plot, dialog, it's all been quite good. Please take these posts constructivly, I love when people tear through my game and point out everything I can easily do to make it better.

I really look forward to what you do next, good luck, and ask me to specify anything and I'll try to do so.
 
May 9, 2006 at 10:44 PM
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Shmitz said:
Could you tell me specifically what you did, and which side it was on? I need to know if I just need to make the script faster, or have it all fill in instantly.
Stand on 51,52 and jump, then don't move. I believe thats what did it... I'll test later if this dosn't work for you.

Sorry for the double (almost tripple) post.
 
May 9, 2006 at 11:29 PM
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Damn it! I can't get past the Sand Zone and I already have the Booster 0.8 but I think I have to go where there is an area that goes straight up near tons of bone monsters and it is making me mad! do I have to get back to where the Booster 0.8 is?
 
May 10, 2006 at 12:06 AM
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SeriousFace said:
* The map system dosn't work? Was that your clever doing to reenforce plot, or is there some new glitch?

Actually, I found that if you try using the map system on a map that's 380 tiles long, it glitches out. It works fine on other maps. I put that text in there just to give some sort of reason why someone would discard it in a place like the Labyrinth =P

SeriousFace said:
* Hmmm.... is there something your sposed to do before you can fight monster X? The cat and one of the talking guidi elude to monster X not working... But for some reason I could fight him as soon as i get there...

Did you get the neccessary item first? It's fine if you do it in that order, but maybe I should put something in to change the dialogue up a little if you do. (Note, you can completely skip the labyrinth store if you choose to, but it's to your advantage later if you get the address chip.)

SeriousFace said:
* Its also worth noting that you can skip the Monster X spawning event. You don't actually need to use the boss to get by that stretch of spikes. In fact... IMO he makes it harder (even when I poke 3 of his eyes out and leave him on his first form).

How did you get past the line of eight deathtraps? Even with using a Gaudi for temp invincibility I wasn't able to get myself over it.
 
May 10, 2006 at 2:00 AM
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SeriousFace said:
I felt really bad killing that group of doods... They just wanted freedom...

Hahah and Mimiga flesh ;)
 
May 10, 2006 at 5:34 AM
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OIC about the map system. I definatly miss it, but it actually does make some kinda sense with the story that it dosn't work. It not being able to keep up with Genisis makes sense in my head. Like real cave story, not everything needs to be explained 100%, just so long as the player can think up a good reason. Lots of newer games don't really give you that effect.

Bout fighting monster X right away, I don't know... What is the neccissary item? If its booster v1 then yea I had it. I'll let you know how I got past if you give me the coords. Also, when he should spawn I think you can skip the event by walking (as opposed to jumping) past the event. Or maybe I never got the item... I'm not sure yet, havn't played with it again yet. I can look into this if you'd like.

BTW, in case of monster X being killed and that area being unpassable, can you give him flag 2000 to keep him alive? Then he'll always be there when you need him.
I almost killed him before even realizing that it would be hard to pass to the right.
 
May 10, 2006 at 7:11 AM
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Fighting the 'teers early is something that's already documented, but I figure I'd mention that I squeezed my way into that as well (and I also Polar sniped).

Regard health, I finished with 27 HP (so I found 24 of the possible 37, according to the FAQ), and I didn't miss any HP in the original Cave Story, not even the first time through. Considering that I've gained experience since then, I'll guess that you cranked up the difficulty a bit much. Instead of maybe hiding so many capsules, maybe make some of them just moderately tricky jumps. They don't even have to be silly hard like the one on the right side of the Mimiga village.

Regarding Monster X, it is possible to get all the way across without Monster X. The "tricky" part would seem to be crossing the second set of spikes (they are all -127), but there's a place where enough of the spike is covered that you can stand on (you're still halfway through the spike, but it's not enough to trigger damage). Anyway, does the column of spikes serve any real purpose other than force you to take damage? You're killing someone's hope of pulling off a 3 HP run. ;)

Regarding weapons, well, this may take a while. First, some ammo progressions come to mind:

Snake: 50, 60, 70 (up 20% of the original at a time)
Bubbler: 25, 50, 75 (up 100% of the original at a time)

These may be more suitable at 40, 60, 80, or 40, 60, 80, 100, or 50, 75, 100, or some other nonsense (in other words, aim more for like up 50% of the original at a time, maybe as low as 1/3 or as high as 2/3 if the starting value warrants it, like 25 or 30; 1/4 and 3/4 are pushing it, but sometimes those are what you need). The Snake ammo number seems a bit on the big side, but I guess it can't be helped; after all, the Bubbler recharges, but the Snake doesn't.

It would seem very difficult, but it's probably possible to skip the Snake and instead pick it up after losing your weapons. Be wary of that.

Regarding weapons after you drop them, having just the Bubbler and Missiles is a bad combination. A rule of thumb I believe is to be sure the player has unlimited ammo that can destroy blocks (at least when they must destroy blocks to advance). The Bubbler can't break blocks at Lv2 or lower, and Missiles are limited. This wasn't a "problem" for me, but it can be very inconvenient.

Also, and this applies to HP as well, you don't want to penalize a player that doesn't know the secrets as much as reward a player than can find them (but since they are usually extremely skilled/determined, you don't want to reward them too much). Giving the player a Fireball takes the 'teer fight from insanely hard (especially without the Sword, since your Bubbler becomes powerless in a hurry, and Missiles are extremely limited) to painfully easy (just have stand on the blocks above and spam without mercy). This is NOT the kind of reward a skilled player wants (heck, the original Cave Story rewarded skilled players by giving them a harder final cave and then allowing them to play Sacred Grounds).

And even in general, and this has been mentioned already, but the Bubbler's quick de-leveling makes a Sword-less and Fireball-less player powerless in a hurry (aside from ~15 missiles). Maybe swap the contents of a 5 missile box with the Sword or Fireball (although I know you have the Sword scene set up already). Or maybe give the Machinegun in place of the Bubbler: it may be overpowering, but it makes the 'teer fight playable (even taking one hit saps any unf the Bubbler might have, and no Fireball means no brainless spam).

Finally, whenever you have a secret, you need to give a solid hint. You can be subtler than the block which hints at the Arms Barrier in the original Cave Story, but don't force the player to investigate every single wall (that's just boring). I even read your hint about the Blade, and I still have NO clue about where to fall/jump to get it; and if you're going to hint that a secret path (or if you in fact make a secret path) is around some dangerous area (like spikes), have a save point not too far away. I'm not daring enough to risk death after a lot of trekking, especially when I'm skeptical there's a secret there anyway.

So yeah, you can probably tell I didn't find the Fireball, either.

A final idea that comes to mind in the 'teer fight is to change the terrain so that a person can't just snipe. This isn't just from the left or right, but also from above. You may need to decrease the difficulty of the fight in some other way to compensate (damage taken per hit, decreasing enemy HP, decrease the rate of projectiles fired at the player, maybe allowing the player to hurt *all* 'teers at any point in the fight as opposed to just one at a time).

It's a great mod, and it's coming along well (a lot of the earlier parts have been cleaned up well), but it'd best to agonize over every single detail now rather than let hoards of players do that later.
 
May 10, 2006 at 7:53 AM
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About the Sword.

Perhaps you noticed that the entrance to Genesis: Earth is not the furthest right you can go in Genesis: Sky.

It just takes a leap of faith.
 
May 10, 2006 at 10:33 AM
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Yeah, I've noticed (when I had Booster 2.0 to give it away). It's just that the leap of faith has failed every single time so far.

Oh well, I'll try it again.

[EDIT]: Okay, I see I was "leaping" to the wrong area (more like a fall, and you have to do it a little before the end, not quite at the end). I've been able to duplicate the "drowning in sand" problem, by the way: essentially, if you stay too far to the right as the sand piles in, you're likely to get stuck (since it stacks higher on the right).

And I've at least found the Pot and Fireball the second time around. Geeze, I usually don't forget the basics...
 
May 10, 2006 at 4:04 PM
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Maelstrom said:
Anyway, does the column of spikes serve any real purpose other than force you to take damage? You're killing someone's hope of pulling off a 3 HP run. ;)
Nah you can go over that. It's possible with 3hp, but I think you'll probably need monster X then.

Maelstrom said:
It would seem very difficult, but it's probably possible to skip the Snake and instead pick it up after losing your weapons. Be wary of that.
Thats a very good point... Once you lose your weapons, the snake upgrades should probably disapear.

Maelstrom said:
Regarding weapons after you drop them, having just the Bubbler and Missiles is a bad combination. A rule of thumb I believe is to be sure the player has unlimited ammo that can destroy blocks (at least when they must destroy blocks to advance). The Bubbler can't break blocks at Lv2 or lower, and Missiles are limited. This wasn't a "problem" for me, but it can be very inconvenient.
The next one you get is fireball too... Never breaks blocks. In sandzone you only NEED to break blocks once right when you leave to labryinth. IIRC in labryrinth you never need to, but get a life up or something for one.

The teers are fightable with just bubbler... In fact it being lvl 3 makes it pretty hard for them to hit you... Just gatta play very defensive... 1 hit lvl down is your biggest enemy. Seriously tho, the worst part about bubbler is how fast it lvls down from max. When people figure out how to successfuly hack weapons, I hope this is one of the first things they change.

I agree that changing the terrain is probably the best solution to the guadiskateers fight. Im not sure what makes them attack or just stand still and jump, but... gatta do something... the best method to fight them isn't actually fighting at all, and that in itself is a problem.
 
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