Thoughts about red flower transformation *spoilers*

I'm glad I found this forum. I've been looking for someone to talk about it with.

Now then, to the real topic. When Toroko is transformed by the red flowers, and then defeated, she disappears. However, when Sue and Misery are transformed by the Doctor's red crystal-enchance presence, they change back after the Doctor is defeated. Is it because the Doctor's transforming them was a "secondary" change, or because the red flower effects were undone when the Demon Crown was destroyed?

 

Well, given the nature of the transformation, it wasn't really like the actual red flower transforms... or Sue would have turned into a ravenous beast instead of a sort of were-mimiga thing, and Misery....er... That thing still confuses me.

Anyhow, I think that the red flowers' effects might be... well... a bit 'unrefined', and therefore less discriminate in its transformations. The red crystal seems to be more refined, and therefore could probably control the transformation better. Could probably be argued that the red crystal is more 'pure' as well, given it's all the qualities the doctor wanted extracted from the flowers. The flowers themselves could have had a number of other magical 'impurities' that resulted in the eventual death of Mimigas dosed on them.

 

Yep, the Doctor says before the boss fight with him, "The flowers contain not only a substance to draw out one's latent powers, but to crush one's very faculties of reason. It is this that I have successfully extracted and concentrated. You can see it in the form of this... ...Red Crystal. And unlike the flowers, this Crystal will affect humans as well."

Just judging from that quote, it seems that all the Doctor extracted from the flowers was either one substance or two; in either case, the substance(s) had the effect of making yourself more powerful and making you go crazy. As Daimera already said, there could be other substances in the flowers that cause death that the Doctor did not extract and concentrate.

Also, remember what happens to the Doctor after you beat his second (crazy) form? He doesn't disappear and die like Toroko does. His body is destroyed, but his consciousness is thriving, insomuch that he can use his uncanny powers to transform Misery/Sue to nightmarish enemies and control the Core. Then when you defeat the core, you finally defeat his consciousness for good, and Misery and Sue are released from his grip. That's how I see it, anyway.

 

Just a thought:

Could it be that, the flowers are ingested ( the mimigas have to eat them ) but the crystal makes its changes externally? Since the flower-transformation is started internally, you may have to kill a mimiga all the way to stop it. But since the crystal makes the transformation externally, might one need only to knock a transformed mimiga out? Thus shattering the mental grip on the mimiga (the loss of reason) which could allow for the physical transformation to reverse?

 

I thought what the Doctor exhibited was the Red Crystal drawing out the powers hidden in the Demon Crown. As we all know, the Demon Crown will reform itself as long as Ballos lives. The Red Crystal probably passed an enhanced form of this power to the one wearing the crown, enabling him to partially reform enough to exist within the Red Crystal. Everything he did then was due to spreading the red powder - and fragments of his conciousness - to other beings.

 

Though that raises another question. Why does King have red eyes? As we have seen from Toroko and the other Mimiga who had eaten the red flowers, their eyes become red and have slits in their eyes. Maybe King tried to protect one of the Mimiga and consumed a bit of a red flower? Also if a red crystal was made using the demon flowers, couldn't a different crystal be made which enables the person who has it to become stronger, since when you fight the doctor, he talks about the flowers having two effects, the ability to increase the strength of the mimiga who eats it, and the loss of reason, and he concentrated the loss of reason into a red crystal, couldn't someone else make a crystal which gives the user strength?

 

The wording is a bit confusing. I can see two plausible meanings. The first is that the substance in question both causes the transformation and destroys the mind at the same time. This would mean that any other effects of the flowers (such as the poisoning) are avoided. The thing is, if Date had used something that removed one's mental faculties, he could never have thought to take over the core.

The other is more a wording issue. If he extracted the beserker component from the flowers, that could mean he either concentrated it (which doesn't make any sense) or concentrated the remaining compound sans that part. While the dialog would suggest the former, I don't think it's supposed to. That would make it about the only AG translation error in all of Cave Story.

 

Though that raises another question. Why does King have red eyes?

King's eyes arn't red there yellow/orange

 

But they still look red and yes you are right about the eyes thing I read the forum topic about sue and King. There is another question unanswered. How were the red flowers created? When the mimiga appeared on the island, there were already red flowers, but how did the flowers appear. The game talks about Ballos being sealed in the island and since he resides in hell, that means he wanted to make some sort of chaos which could give the mimiga a chance to fight back at the cause of their reasoning.

 

from what i gather the flowers ballos has more power then he can cotain and there made of what leaks off the crystal is the same made by the doc(date) i think the crystal only made the doc change because he was wearing/using the crown or atleast made him change too soon the crystal most likey would have taken a few day or so to transform him kinda like a were-beast transformation when your first infilcted

 

Its simple - The doctor *thought* he had found a way to just get power from the crystal... But he didn't.

And if the doctor could come back after dying, how come he can't just come back after you defeat the core?
And at the end, the dog says Ballos can't be killed. How do you kill him then? It doesn't make sense.

 

Maybe Ballos couldn't be killed when he didn't want to die. But if he does want to die he is possible to kill.

 

Uh oh... my eye has fixed upon this thread...

Now then, to the real topic. When Toroko is transformed by the red flowers, and then defeated, she disappears. However, when Sue and Misery are transformed by the Doctor's red crystal-enchance presence, they change back after the Doctor is defeated. Is it because the Doctor's transforming them was a "secondary" change, or because the red flower effects were undone when the Demon Crown was destroyed?

is there a key detail we're missing?

YES!

Here's the quote from the game...
Kazuma pauses.
Kazuma: You know, there's one other way one might return the Mimigas to their natural state.
Kazuma: You could destroy the island's core.
Kazuma: If you did that, however, the island would most likely crumble.
Kazuma: A dangerous choice, no?

When Toroko was killed the Core was still fully alive.
But, IF you took out Sue and Misery, it was just before destroying the Core... Which in turn released them from the effects of the red flower/crystal.

or because the red flower effects were undone when the Demon Crown was destroyed?

It had nothing to do with the Demon Crown... As long as Ballos is sealed, the crown keeps coming back.

Well, given the nature of the transformation, it wasn't really like the actual red flower transforms... or Sue would have turned into a ravenous beast instead of a sort of were-mimiga thing, and Misery....er... That thing still confuses me.

Misery, the Doctor and even Sue were actually human.

The flowers themselves could have had a number of other magical 'impurities' that resulted in the eventual death of Mimigas dosed on them.

Remember Igor? Because, the Doctor had not found the red flower at the point you find Igor, means that he ate a red flower at some point before. [which I'd like to say from the 10 year ago war] Even if it is more recent; I doubt the flowers kill the Mimiga; although it seems to be a permanent transformation [minus the Core being destroyed]

Also, remember what happens to the Doctor after you beat his second (crazy) form? He doesn't disappear and die like Toroko does. His body is destroyed, but his consciousness is thriving, insomuch that he can use his uncanny powers to transform Misery/Sue to nightmarish enemies and control the Core. Then when you defeat the core, you finally defeat his consciousness for good, and Misery and Sue are released from his grip. That's how I see it, anyway.

If the source that keeps the Mimigas transformed [the Core]; using my theory [stated below] I could question if it was simply the Red Crystal that gave the Doctor the power to live after dying off; The Undead Core as it is called; probably was corrupted by the Doctor when he initially "saved" it. I wonder if he could have possessed a normal healthy Core? So I think if the Core is supposed to keep the source [Ballos] and the power seperated; the Doctor which became part of the power; took conciousness; and a body with the Core. ...
I guess the most I can say definitely is it's probably not so simple lol

Could it be that, the flowers are ingested ( the mimigas have to eat them ) but the crystal makes its changes externally? Since the flower-transformation is started internally, you may have to kill a mimiga all the way to stop it. But since the crystal makes the transformation externally, might one need only to knock a transformed mimiga out? Thus shattering the mental grip on the mimiga (the loss of reason) which could allow for the physical transformation to reverse?

I'd have to go with the Core being destroyed theory. The crystals effects are probably even more potent then the flower's.
Also remember when defeating Igor, you didn't kill him all the way [his body remained and was gone till the end of the game at the Balcony] But, the fact he changed back for a short time; is quite intriuging... That would mean; perhaps if you are strong enough; the flower would regenerate you; and then you'd become the monster again...

I thought what the Doctor exhibited was the Red Crystal drawing out the powers hidden in the Demon Crown. As we all know, the Demon Crown will reform itself as long as Ballos lives. The Red Crystal probably passed an enhanced form of this power to the one wearing the crown, enabling him to partially reform enough to exist within the Red Crystal. Everything he did then was due to spreading the red powder - and fragments of his conciousness - to other beings.

That does bring up a point, what were the Demon Crown's actual powers? Levitation/Teleporting? we know. Controlling Misery and Balrog... but what else? Are we overlooking the obvious? Why was it called the Demon Crown... and in the statue room the first two Creatures... [demons?] that donned the crown... Was the crown created to control Demons? Except Ballos made it control her instead and gave it to the demon??? ...

Though that raises another question. Why does King have red eyes?

The answer lies in the past! When I finish up my story for the 10 years earlier [and maybe the game!]

And if the doctor could come back after dying, how come he can't just come back after you defeat the core?
And at the end, the dog says Ballos can't be killed. How do you kill him then? It doesn't make sense.

Using my theory, the Core kept the power [red flower/crystal] from returning to the source... So becoming the power he became... immortal, somewhat; by controlling the Core he had a body. But once the Core was defeated the power being returned; the Doctor probably became part of Ballos [and hte many dead there];

Oh and the dog at the end says
“Please kill my master. That is the only way Misery can be freed…

…The only way to avoid repetition of this tragedy.

My master’s name is Ballos.

His magic powers have gone wild, and now he cannot even die.”

I imagine the dog meant by natural causes, such as time. Ballos simply will live on forever; unless someone can defeat his evil power...
[and then of course when all is said and done, the dead probably drag him to hell or something (from the very end quotes)]

Maybe Ballos couldn't be killed when he didn't want to die. But if he does want to die he is possible to kill.

That couldn't hurt; although I'm sure Ballos probably wanted to die a long time ago; part of him anyways. I wonder if even Jenka could have done it; if she had wanted to kill him...

Okay and this last part is something I originally wrote when responding about Toroko going to leave it in here since I wrote it "
Okay~ this is for everyone
First off, Toroko a real Mimiga was forced to eat an unknown amount of flowers by Balrog. Which she almost immediately transformed from... also you have to take in account Mimigas are probably pretty fragile creatures; and Toroko was just a child.

The flower + being gunned down probably killed her. She perma-deathed (dust cloud death) after being defeated...

Evil, bad Quote gunned the poor child down [no other choice... I know I tried everything!]..... and that was all her poor body could take [notice how giant she transformed... BAlrog probably gave her a bunch of flower; the only other Mimiga we know that transformed like this was Igor; And I have some serious questions about Igor; if the Doctor didn't know about the flowers, that means Igor was transformed at some earlier point in the timeline... Er, in any case we know Igor probably had about the same amount of flowers as Toroko; And we know how much reason he had left... some, not much... (he didn't kill Sue); I still blame Quote for killing Toroko, and Balrog! blargh! [of course the Doctor gets his though. ...]

Uh back on track;
Now you ask why didn't Sue and Misery die? and/or why are they different when they transform?

First off, Sue is Human [although magically transformed by Misery]; and Misery well... I think she's human lol
Second the flowers probably don't really affect humans much;
But the Crystal which was made by extracting the stuff from the flowers; is strong enough to affect humans and the Doctor. He said something about figuring out how to get rid of the effects that make you lose your sanity.. Which is probably true up to a point; once the Doctor was practically killed; his body ravaged; he couldn't control the crystal anymore; and became something else.

The crystal was probably mostly used up on the Doctor but the remaining was used on Sue and Misery. And" here you start at the top of the post again lol

 

There is another question unanswered. How were the red flowers created?

Here's my take on it:

When Misery made the Demon Crown, Jenka knew that men would come, seeking its power. In order to protect the world from the Demon Crown, Jenka created the Core, to harness Ballos' magic and give the island flight. Eventually, as the men of the surface world began developing the capability of flight, Jenka created the Mimigas, to provide for the island's defense, and the Red Flowers to draw energy from the Core and draw out a Mimiga's latent abilities. She then created the Gaudis, to protect the Core from wandering Mimigas.

If you have questions about what makes me think this, I'll be happy to answer.

 

I am seeing how you think of this but if Ballos was never defeated then the Demon Crown and the Core would come back and another thing Ballos couldn't be killed because nobody could get him but Quote went striaght through hell to defeat him(doesn't anyone ever say thanks or give him money?) there fore Ballos couldn't be killed unless 1.He wanted to die and 2. Nobody could get through hell to him because of the many bosses and Death Traps

 

I am seeing how you think of this but if Ballos was never defeated then the Demon Crown and the Core would come back.

Actually, only the Demon Crown would come back. The Core is separate from Ballos, but links to his power. The Demon Crown is Ballos' power made manifest.

and another thing Ballos couldn't be killed because nobody could get him

The only ones who knew of Ballos' existence were Jenka (who doesn't want to kill her brother), Misery (who is bound by the Demon Crown), Balrog (also bound), and Possibly Booster and the Doctor. None of them wanted Ballos killed except Balrog.

therefore Ballos couldn't be killed unless He wanted to die

Actually, Ballos does want to die. When you get there, he tells you to kill him.

 

Jenka created the Core, to harness Ballos' magic and give the island flight.

The only item I'd protest in your conclusion would be that~ Because,

"Oh and as for the Core... What is the core???

*Spoiler*

It obviously isn't what makes the island float... I believe it might be something Jenka created to seal Ballos. Because once Ballos is defeated the island stops falling. But when the Core is alive the island doesn't fall because it is sealing Ballos. Just a theory.

Then again maybe Jenka went all out and stopped the island from falling or something ;P"

Also, in reflection; the island falls in the Good ending after defeating the Core; and I think Jenka would have stopped the island from falling if she could; So, I'm guessing it probably wasn't her alone that stopped the island from falling in the best ending, if she had anything to do with it.
Perhaps Misery chipped in to help?

Suddenly although this is awkward I wonder what Jenka might have looked like in her younger years

 

If we say the core was what was keeping the island afloat, then what was keeping Ballos sealed? The simplest answer (Occam's Razor) is Jenka. In the Good ending, Jenka is still having to keep Ballos sealed, while in the Best ending, she isn't. Therefore one could postulate that she would only have been able to stop the island from falling if she didn't have to expend her efforts to contain Ballos's haywire magical energies.

It's similar to the core-as-sealer theory, where Jenka keeps it afloat, but once the seal is broken, can't keep the island up while Ballos's magic is running rampant. The only difference is the roles are switched.

Of the two tasks, however, keeping Ballos sealed seems like the more difficult one, which is why I prefer the core-as-floater theory. One, I think Jenka would want a more active role in containing her brother, as opposed to a passive one. Two, the more she had to set her energies to a certain task, the easier it is to understand why an obviously powerful witch such as herself didn't just turn the Doctor into a frog, or how easily it seemed Balrog manhandled (toasterhandled?) her.

 

If we say the core was what was keeping the island afloat, then what was keeping Ballos sealed? The simplest answer (Occam's Razor) is Jenka. In the Good ending, Jenka is still having to keep Ballos sealed, while in the Best ending, she isn't. Therefore one could postulate that she would only have been able to stop the island from falling if she didn't have to expend her efforts to contain Ballos's haywire magical energies.

It's similar to the core-as-sealer theory, where Jenka keeps it afloat, but once the seal is broken, can't keep the island up while Ballos's magic is running rampant. The only difference is the roles are switched.

Of the two tasks, however, keeping Ballos sealed seems like the more difficult one, which is why I prefer the core-as-floater theory. One, I think Jenka would want a more active role in containing her brother, as opposed to a passive one. Two, the more she had to set her energies to a certain task, the easier it is to understand why an obviously powerful witch such as herself didn't just turn the Doctor into a frog, or how easily it seemed Balrog manhandled (toasterhandled?) her.

That, and after the first core battle, Misery tells you that the Core is what keeps the island afloat.

 

Two, the more she had to set her energies to a certain task, the easier it is to understand why an obviously powerful witch such as herself didn't just turn the Doctor into a frog, or how easily it seemed Balrog manhandled (toasterhandled?) her.

lol I could just see the doctor changed into a frog...*makes a picture in his head* lol... that would be a funny scene. It would be funnier if the Doctor is changed into one of the mini frogs in Jenka's Nightmare...