Mod Vs. Hack

Feb 22, 2011 at 6:21 PM
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Why are you snoopin' around, Dubby?
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 8:30 AM
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Malpercio said:
these here forums need a "show spoilers by default" button or at least one to open the whole tree of them in a case of nested spoilers.

or for that matter, disallow empty spoiler tags

They weren't empty, though. All 19 contained the pic.

@LS: What's wrong with snooping? :mrgreen:
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 12:40 PM
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Not much. I don't think the average gamer would hack the game, though.
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 1:29 PM
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*Ahem*

LunarSoul said:
What is it with my topics and off-topic rants?
Don't get all hypocritical now.
This is no longer a thread about your mod, and if you didn't like the discussion enough that it got moved, then don't start derailing this yourself.
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 2:45 PM
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What? What are you talking about? How am I derailing anything?
And I made that comment while it was in my thread.
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 4:10 PM
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technically it's still your thread. also, all threads run into offtopic stuff eventually. it's a matter of HOW offtopic it gets before the mods show up to rein the thread in.
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 10:16 PM
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LunarSoul said:
What? What are you talking about? How am I derailing anything?
And I made that comment while it was in my thread.
Exactly, this was moved because it was becoming off-topic in your thread, and now became a topic about the definitions of Hack and Mod when used by people in the forums.
Not almost 2 pages about your mod.
You still have your thread if you wanted to talk about it, that's the whole point of the move.
Malpercio said:
technically it's still your thread. also, all threads run into offtopic stuff eventually. it's a matter of HOW offtopic it gets before the mods show up to rein the thread in.
Point?
'Ownership' of thread has little to say. Specially when it technically wasn't made by him, it's the result of an off-topic move.
And it could easily stay/get back on topic without moderator help, it just relies on how much everyone else gives a crap.

tl;dr
Your thoughts on what makes a Mod a Hack and such?
I have a slight nasty feeling that the two definitions are changed on the forums so that Modifications mean general riff-raff and that Hacks are elitist, mostly coming from the fact that these have new definitions in the first place.
I'm guessing this stems from how people feel they're really hacking the engine when they're working more on their 'own power' and editing the code themselves than, as Lace said, limiting themselves to the engine and Cave Editor. Thus, they'd feel better for being able to do that themselves, which leads to offense when the terms get mixed...
And I suppose that feels slightly nasty because I'd put myself in the Mod part, since I still haven't learned near enough Assembly myself to stray far from Cave Editor and TSC...
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 10:24 PM
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Really?

VoidMage_Lowell said:
And I suppose that feels slightly nasty because I'd put myself in the Mod part, since I still haven't learned near enough Assembly myself to stray far from Cave Editor and TSC...
So since I can read it's wrong to point out that I'm not illiterate? (Not the best analogy, I know, but really?)
Not your smartest argument, void. Being elitist isn't necessarily a bad thing.
If I make an awesome hack, I feel like I should be able to point that out without people's feelings getting hurt.
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 10:41 PM
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Yarly.

Lace said:
So since I can read it's wrong to point out that I'm not illiterate? (Not the best analogy, I know, but really?)
Not your smartest argument, void. Being elitist isn't necessarily a bad thing.
If I make an awesome hack, I feel like I should be able to point that out without people's feelings getting hurt.
When I say Elitist, I'm obviously not labeling anyone for simply knowing how to do something more advanced than me.
What I'm talking about is when it goes from simply 'pointing out' to outright 'bragging'. No, not pointing fingers and such here, just experience over time.
That's just why I'd dislike it, more ways to 'brag'.
It'd be stupid if I tried to pretend I knew as much about hacking Cave Story as, say, Noxid, but he never makes it a large and well-known point to me, even when doing a hack for me. I'd have no trouble labeling his mod as a Hack to show it's much more modified in the actual code and such.

I also never said anything about it being bad, if you'd re-read that, simply my personal thoughts and an explanation on them possibly even being rather shallow.
I was simply laying out the possible reasons for us having these 'new definitions'.
So, what argument, Lace?
 
Feb 24, 2011 at 1:40 AM
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In my opinion hacking is modifying executable files or shared libraries (dll files for example) without the use of the original source. Modding is the modifying of files that are "interpreted" (non-executable files btw) by these executable files or libraries, such as images, tsc, maps, etc. Cave Story modding does both. Hence why all of the modding subforums are labelled with "mod/hack" or it's derivitives.

Modding tends to outweigh hacking in a CS mod, so the term "mod" is more apt than "hack" if I had to choose just one, but that's just me. Ultimately it doesn't matter if you call it a mod or hack since both are correct (unless of course you only changed the graphics or made a tech demo for some asm code you wrote).
 
Feb 24, 2011 at 1:42 PM
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Lace said:
So since I can read it's wrong to point out that I'm not illiterate? (Not the best analogy, I know, but really?)
Not your smartest argument, void. Being elitist isn't necessarily a bad thing.
If I make an awesome hack, I feel like I should be able to point that out without people's feelings getting hurt.

Being accurate about capabilities isn't necessarily a bad thing. Being elitist pretty much is.

The difference can be illustrated reasonably accurately by comparing the following two statements.

1: "Caucasians are better than Africans at staying warm in cold areas, as a result of having less efficient mitochondria which generate more heat."

2: "Caucasians are better than Africans."
 
Feb 24, 2011 at 3:55 PM
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magic9mushroom said:
Being accurate about capabilities isn't necessarily a bad thing. Being elitist pretty much is.

The difference can be illustrated reasonably accurately by comparing the following two statements.

1: "Caucasians are better than Africans at staying warm in cold areas, as a result of having less efficient mitochondria which generate more heat."

2: "Caucasians are better than Africans."

QFT


As far as mod/hack goes, the way I typically use the terms, and (correct me if I'm wrong) the way almost all of the forum users use the terms, is that a hack is a specific modification to the assembly code, done by a human (i.e. not counting editing map data in CE/SW), while a mod is the product as a whole. For example, I rarely hear anyone refer to King: Strife & Sacrifice or WTF Story as hacks nowadays. They both contain many hacks, but the whole products are almost always referred to as mods.

It's interesting; I just now realized how the meanings of the two terms (within the community) has changed over time. Earlier, in the RuneLancer Dynasty, the word hack was actually used to describe whole products. RuneLancer himself referred to Original Sin as a hack (remember the thread titles: "So I started a hack...", and "So I restarted a hack..."), whereas now, in the Noxid Dynasty, most of us would call Original Sin a mod, which simply contains many hacks (similarly, people of the RLD would probably refer to things like King: Strife & Sacrifice and WTF Story as hacks). About the only time we refer to whole products as hacks in the ND is when the entire product contains only hacks and no other modifications (i.e. Lace's speed hack).

Now, as I recall, what started this whole debate was LunarSoul referring to JN as a hack. I would say that, within the currently conventional naming system, even though it does technically have edited exe data, it's misleading to refer to it as a hack.
 
Feb 24, 2011 at 4:01 PM
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Who really cares? I mean seriously, the world of modding would be a happy place if mod and hack meant the same thing. We would all be friends, but no, we have to have wars about which word means what. Sure, hack might make it sound "elite", but you could easily say "hex editor hacked" instead.
There's no need for all this violence!
 
Feb 24, 2011 at 4:16 PM
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Violence? What violence? We're just trying to clarify the meaning of the words. No violence involved...
 
Feb 24, 2011 at 7:45 PM
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Ah, perhaps.
...
Okay fine, there's no violence.
But seriously, why don't we all just get along? I'm still on board for saying that both words should mean the same thing. And you can just say your mod (or hack) is cool, because you changed some assembly hex values.
And if this just a debate saying that modding is using CE or SW to hack, so are hex editing programs such as XVII. I mean sure you need to learn the language, but you need to do that for TSC as well (although it is obviously easier).
 
Feb 24, 2011 at 8:38 PM
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You started this thread.

Back on:
Wedge got it the best, I'd say. When I think of a hack, I think of the Cave Story edits that don't have a specific purpose, but to expand what can be done with the engine, a mod has a story.
 
Feb 24, 2011 at 8:51 PM
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thecrown said:
You started this thread.
No, I didn't.
In my JN thread:
I said hack, then gir (I think) went nuts, then we had an argument, then noxid split the thread.
So don't lay this on me.
 
Feb 24, 2011 at 9:26 PM
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Hey I didn't go nuts, I just told you I thought your mod wasn't what I'd call a hack, and then suddenly this turned into it's own thread.
 
Feb 24, 2011 at 9:33 PM
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Meh. Yeah, I guess.
 
Feb 24, 2011 at 10:22 PM
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LunarSoul said:
Who really cares? I mean seriously, the world of modding would be a happy place if mod and hack meant the same thing. We would all be friends, but no, we have to have wars about which word means what. Sure, hack might make it sound "elite", but you could easily say "hex editor hacked" instead.
There's no need for all this violence!
LunarSoul said:
Ah, perhaps.
...
Okay fine, there's no violence.
But seriously, why don't we all just get along? I'm still on board for saying that both words should mean the same thing. And you can just say your mod (or hack) is cool, because you changed some assembly hex values.
And if this just a debate saying that modding is using CE or SW to hack, so are hex editing programs such as XVII. I mean sure you need to learn the language, but you need to do that for TSC as well (although it is obviously easier).
Uhm, yeah, you really need to calm yourself down...
Blowing the whistle because we're having a discussion, saying we can't get along? There hasn't even been anything close to an argument yet.
Stop overreacting, yourself.
This is just now a valid thread about a reoccurring theme that's been around since long before you were even a member. Hell, even before I.
Just stick with what you started with the last part of the second quote, and the friendly discussion can continue.
Else, you're not helping a bit.
 
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