CS community meta discussion

Edit:
Also my take on doukutsu club is that it needs to outdo curseforge in terms of user experience and aesthetic appeal, I think that's the end goal we should aim for with that.

Given that I can actually load the pages unlike how Curseforge possibly ip banned me and requires an account I'd say it already is significantly ahead

 

Introducing CaveForge:

You have to pay enlight 7 dollars a second for a blue checkmark on your CaveForge account that way enlight and the oomfs can work on BetaCvaeForge

Actually that might be a good idea to try starting a ko-fi or something for this kinda stuff. Just don't use CS assets in your ko-fi pages and make sure you just say you're "maintaining various websites and discords" or something and I think that's honestly a perfectly safe way to go about that. Maybe not as easy to advertise but I think this community and its satellite communities are a perfect grounds to advertise that kinda thing. We're adults and have money so we might as well lol.
I'd contribute money to it once I've got my own shit sorted out.

Issue is you'd have to make sure Doukutsu club is built around that "Don't do anything to piss off nicalis" mentality which means it might need stricter rules on nicalis asset usage idk.

Edit:
The issue with keeping doukutsu club a "cave story only modding site" is you'd need to make sure there's no "rewards" for it because that's legally dubious from what I can gather based on past experience. But then again Kaze is able to make money on mario 64 mods. So maybe you could just do it and be fine lol, but I think a contingency plan wouldn't hurt.

 

The problem with the Forge idea is that we're not making Minecraft mod styled projects where it just adds to the base game, we're using Cave Story as a kickoff point for our own projects and stories and stuff. A mod manager would be cool, yeah, maybe an app that connects directly to Doukutsu Club, but what about the mods that aren't just meant to add on to the base game? What about mods that change pretty much everything?

 

A hypothetical launcher would just be able to download freeware cs or integrate with cs+, copy the files from the original into a new thing, then throw the new files ontop and delete other files based on a "difference from the vanilla file structure" file or something.
For mods that support CS+ it should automatically integrate with CS+ on steam if you have it installed. Yes this means the launcher would need to be a little invasive and check your steam directory for some files but I think it'd solve that installation problem. This would make updating mods and getting mod updates easier because you could integrate it with the servers.

Also I think your phrasing of "adds to the base game" for MC mods isn't really how it is in that community. A lot of mods on Java edition that use fabric do just straight up remove features from the game and there's some that let you literally revert all of the game's logic and rendering to the beta versions while still running in the new engine.
The whole point of things like fabric and forge is to be an API ontop of the base game that lets modders do cool shit and lets mods integrate with eachother easily.
Honestly CS modding would benefit from something like that.

 

Deleting files that don't fit the "vanilla file structure"? I really have to ask again but do you know that a lot of mods being made nowadays are using stuff that are outside of vanilla? Like AVA and stuff?

 

Those mods would just be able to be downloaded and launched directly.

I'm talking about specifically mods that would require an integration with a CSE2- type engine. This way people would be able to start using those without it being a huge annoying hassle every time.
Sorry for not clarifying beforehand.

 

Having seen the edited OP now and figuring out the core message of this thread (it's not global politics from what I can tell): I retract my earlier statements about this being a shitpost and am now under the impression Jade has valid concerns about Cave Story and the forums going into a slow death, but expressed in an unfortunate first-pass and with an imperfect solution (that making "the community" in some vague way "nicer" will make the forums flourish again).

As opposed to... you know... a new game or merch or crossover or something in the IP owners power.

We can make more mods and modding tools and theories and community efforts and make our group sparkly-clean and inviting... but it'll be for the people either already here or for the small trickle of people who were already wishing to dive into CS fan content because they recently found out about and played the game from stuff outside the fanbase.

I'm not gonna suddenly get into Yume Nikki because of the community and fanbase doing awesome things, I haven't played the game (yet) so I'm not gonna be watching those places. I know of that game because people—here in a different community—told me about it and I'll hear news about like that re-release and the new game that came out etc. The reason I would be getting into a game is because from word of mouth in places that are outside of that specific fanbase that reaches me. People outside of that game telling me to check it out, just as it'd be someone outside of the forums and discords telling you to check out Cave Story before you'd even think to run into this community and see what's going on. Sure there's some things like getting the game speedran/played on a popular stream or a YouTube essay that can bait people who haven't played/heard of the game to watch and get interested that'll help drive forum engagement a little, but yeah it's still stuff outside that brings people into a fanbase. We just gotta keep a base level of kindness and support to keep the people here, which I think we have improved on immensely in the past handful of years (if not, again, I will listen to critique so that I can be a better example and help improve that which I control), it's just that there's such a tiny amount of people coming in and no new big official things happening that users are jumping out to do other things in other fanbases where there is new things to talk about. The internet has a recency bias, and people need to know of CS first to even see anything we do.

Yume Nikki is a neat game. But it's really up in the air over whether you'd enjoy it or not if you haven't played it due how ... and you REALLY wouldn't enjoy the fangames if you didn't like the original because they can lean a lot harder into the general direction it was facing

 

Those mods would just be able to be downloaded and launched directly.

I'm talking about specifically mods that would require an integration with a CSE2- type engine. This way people would be able to start using those without it being a huge annoying hassle every time.
Sorry for not clarifying beforehand.

Okay, I'm talking about the people who are still going to use freeware and D-RS for their mods. Nobody wants to use CSE2 anymore because it's a pain in the ass to set up and a new engine (CSE2- or whatever you are suggesting) only adds another engine to a list of other, perfectly fine engines that people are still gonna use anyway. So what about them? Do they just not get to have their mods featured in the mod loader?

Also, I really don't think we should be making another CSE2. That's only going to cause Nicalis to get involved again and it will only cause trouble.

 

The whole reason this site exists is to make it easier to get into CS.

The whole reason a launcher would be made would be to make it easier to get into CS and CS modding especially.
It'd streamline the process a lot so when you recommend CS to people we could just give them a launcher and it'd show them everything that makes CS as fun as it is (which imo, is the modding community and fanworks surrounding it)

Also this isn't "Another CSE2" this is following the exact rules Nicalis set up for us while still streamlining things to make this whole Community Growth thing a lot easier.

IDC what engine people use I care about making it easier for mods to get in peoples' hands as much as possible because the current process feels really dated compared to the stuff other communities have been up to.

 

There is a lot of community growth happening already, new people join the CSMC almost every other week it seems and again the main CS server (the official one) grows and is extremely active every single day. Things aren't happening here because, simply put it, people don't use forums nowadays when stuff like Discord exists. The people who would even care about modding Cave Story are most likely gonna eventually find themselves in the CSMC no matter what happens here, that's just how it is

 

People absolutely use forums.
Reddit is a forum. Twitter and Facebook are weird distorted forums but still forums.
It's just gamified.

The only thing seperating the two structures and gamification and the issue with Discord is that it rewards impulsive "IRC chat" stuff that's been a very omnipresent issue since the very beginning of the community. Twitter has a similar issue, it's at its best when users approach it more like a forum and less like an IRC program.

The Discord would be able to coexist but creating other systems that can help ease the whole process would just allow everyone involved to be more in the loop. Because right now it's very hard to get information across between groups without having someone going in and shouting "Hey guys check out my mod blargo : rebirth" and then you get reddit gold.
It's too clout driven and not conversationally driven which is very unhealthy.

Hell, the launcher just give links to relevant Discords itself lol.

Sites like neoseeker are still alive and well because of this! Well, they've got work to do but I'd say they're going about this in a smart way.

I think making stuff that lets the community's different pillars and culture be at the forefront would let people who are interested also see the culture surrounding this game much more and be drawn in because let's admit it the in jokes over the years are funny but hard to explain without giving mods and other stuff to people.

 

What exactly do you mean by "IRC Chat"? And why are you saying the Discord has a problem with it?

 

What exactly do you mean by "IRC Chat"? And why are you saying the Discord has a problem with it?

No it's moreso a barrier that many people who aren't as passionate about gaming communities have had an issue with historically.
I think by getting rid of as many of those "black boxes" as possible in this community people would be able to see what's going on a lot better without having to actually go make a discord account or join a public server and could just watch from a distance. It's easier for people that way we can just watch and not have to "Be there" you know? I know you can be a lurker in a forum or a discord but do you really wanna have a discord and forum and doukutsu.club thing open all the time when you just wanna play Cave Story mods easily and find cool shit about it?

I feel like it's the most natural extension possible of the tribute site. That way it serves the same exact purpose of the site just more efficiently.
And of course you could integrate all of these respective things together so even if you don't want to use a launcher there could be a dedicated "Cave Story News" thing that the tribute site and launcher would both use (Just with patch notes differing between the two)

 

The whole reason a launcher would be made would be to make it easier to get into CS and CS modding especially.
It'd streamline the process a lot so when you recommend CS to people we could just give them a launcher and it'd show them everything that makes CS as fun as it is (which imo, is the modding community and fanworks surrounding it)

Also this isn't "Another CSE2" this is following the exact rules Nicalis set up for us while still streamlining things to make this whole Community Growth thing a lot easier.

IDC what engine people use I care about making it easier for mods to get in peoples' hands as much as possible because the current process feels really dated compared to the stuff other communities have been up to.

So. Funnily enough, back in 2018, Mint and I were originally working on a similar idea, where you can download and play mods through the same program, and you can even change the settings on DoConfig as well as check to see if the mod has been updated. For those of you who are familiar with MaGCSL, the download also included a program called "MaGCSL Updater". Well, the Mod Launcher idea expanded upon MaGCSL Updater idea, and for the most part, it was very well functional. It even had JSON integration so you can even download older mods that pre-date the program, and things will download a-okay. If I recall correctly tho, I remember Mint having approached Enlight with the idea for Doukutsu Club integration, since both were in the works at the same time, but I'm not sure if anything came from the suggestion, if at all. The program ultimately got abandoned, but I can imagine it can be brought back if there's enough interest.

I also had the idea of a JSON generator for the program, but that idea wasn't developed due to the abandonment

 

No it's moreso a barrier that many people who aren't as passionate about gaming communities have had an issue with historically.
I think by getting rid of as many of those "black boxes" as possible in this community people would be able to see what's going on a lot better without having to actually go make a discord account or join a public server and could just watch from a distance. It's easier for people that way we can just watch and not have to "Be there" you know? I know you can be a lurker in a forum or a discord but do you really wanna have a discord and forum and doukutsu.club thing open all the time when you just wanna play Cave Story mods easily and find cool shit about it?

I feel like it's the most natural extension possible of the tribute site. That way it serves the same exact purpose of the site just more efficiently.
And of course you could integrate all of these respective things together so even if you don't want to use a launcher there could be a dedicated "Cave Story News" thing that the tribute site and launcher would both use (Just with patch notes differing between the two)

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying we should do more for people who aren't active in the community than for the people who are?

 

It's a self-affirming cycle that way. Spreading information to the relevant people easily would be the best way to take off the amount of demand placed on everyone in the community as far as "navigating the community" goes but the whole thing is to just make it easier to see what's up.

The community grows and new minds are brought into the mix and shit just gets better.
This is all about easing entry as well as letting satellite communities connect better as opposed to leaving it up to everyone to go gather shit themselves.

Should I have to join my local union just to hear that the union has did something that benefits me?
That's why we emphasize news so much. Because spreading information is very useful for just... you know... communicating to people in the first place.

Just because someone doesn't wanna join a discord doesn't mean we should hide all the stuff that happens in it for everyone. Tell people about its achievements and events in a more centralized place.

 

I still think the community is still growing, and while I agree that having everything on Discord specifically is bad, we are literally making a new Wiki for that exact purpose of moving things to a more public eye and while it isn't finished and not extremely well known yet (It'd be nice if there was a tab on the Tribute Site that was dedicated to modding that not only had the tools downloadable but also a link that goes directly to the new Wiki and CSMC) it's a lot better than what we had before and it's kinda disingenuous, in my opinion at least, that the stuff that has been done on Discord is seen as lesser simply because it's on Discord and not somewhere like here.

Like I said, in terms of community growth, the Official CS Discord and CSMC are getting activity and new people all the time. Pixel and Tyrone are both LITERALLY in the Official server. I keep bringing this up because I feel like it's being ignored because the growth isn't happening here. I agree that information should be more out there and available outside of Discord but in terms of the community itself, it's seemingly just fine.

I understand where you are coming from now at least and in some respects I agree but I think this whole thread got off on the wrong foot and feels more like ego stroking and comparing to other places than it does actual discussion.

 

Yeah and I'm trying to let you guys know that the world doesn't exist entirely on discord and if you think it does you really need to reevaluate the way you view society.
CS appeals to many more people and this MO is just kneecapping things for no other reason than "what if i don't feel like it".

Now you're back to being as helpful to the conversation to 2DBro and just don't want to help take measures to improve the state of things for all parties involved.
If you don't want to do this yourself that's fine but there's literally people like Serena and Mint who said "We literally will do this for you guys just let us integrate our code" and you seem to really be bending over backwards to ignore that.

 

I never said that the world revolves around Discord. I keep bringing it up because it is one of, if not the, most active and growing part of the community and your perception seems biased towards what you are choosing to see and not what is actually happening now. I'm speaking from my point of view as someone who IS active, and I can assure you that I do know what I am talking about.

I also never said I didn't want change. In my messages I have suggested ways we could change but I'm trying to tell you that the stuff you are wanting from here isn't entirely feasible because we simply do not have what other communities have and we will never.

I think you are correct in terms of information being more upfront and public. I even think we should go as far as making it so the Tribute Site could be used as a portal to modding resources as well and have it more present on the site rather than hidden within the millions of tabs that are here. My point is that work is already being done to fix that and you are ignoring it. A new wiki is bring made, the community is indeed growing (just because it isn't here doesn't mean it isn't at all), and a lot of the stuff you seem to be concerned about are already being fixed or have already been fixed.

Stop blaming us for not being like other communities and stop being upset that things aren't like they used to be, back when things were just constant ego stroking by four people and stuff was actually FAR worse. If you want to see change happen, there are better ways to go about it than making a misinformed thread about how bad things are.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you.

 

i've read through this entire thread from when it was created up until now and i still have no clue what's going on

edit: granted, i'm not as dead-set on the community's growth and/or the forum's sustainability like i'm guessing jade is, and/or i'm just an idiot, but i am still confused.