CS community meta discussion

Let's just remember that Cave Story is a 20 year old game. Windows 11 barely runs it properly, the version on Steam has broken features, and the only good official version on Switch is $30 for a free game. (There are better fan made versions but normies who've never played the game aren't going to bother setting up Doukutsu-rs)

All things considered, we're lucky that Cave Story HAS a community as big as the one here. It's got a bigger community than a lot of other indie games. Yeah, it's not as big as Hollow Knight or Undertale's community but that's ok. The best thing that we can do for Cave Story is to get people to play it for the first time. Recommend it to a friend, make a YouTube video about it, upload fanart, whatever.

Trying to change these forums is a dumb move. Forums were mostly replaced by places like reddit, and NOTHING we do here can change that. I do feel this place is pretty active all things considered. But hey, if you feel like the forums aren't active enough, make your own post instead of complain about it.

Also, stop holding onto hope for Cave Story 2. It's not happening, it doesn't make sense. You should be excited for whatever Pixel's next game will be.

However, Nicalis can and should fix the situation in terms of Cave Story ports. The Switch version is a good start, but the Steam version needs to be updated with those features. It should be on PS4/5 and Xbox too. Also, it shouldn't be $30, it should be $10. I say $10 because that's what the 3DS version was, and that version is why I played the game for the first time. Having the official ports be a reasonable price and accessible on many platforms would be amazing for community growth.

 

Let's just remember that Cave Story is a 20 year old game. Windows 11 barely runs it properly, the version on Steam has broken features, and the only good official version on Switch is $30 for a free game. (There are better fan made versions but normies who've never played the game aren't going to bother setting up Doukutsu-rs)

ok so why don't we prop up Doukutsu-RS as the defacto CS engine, make a clear and easy guide or program to set it up for people.
The same way the Doom community and many other retro game communities have made the "easiest to mod source port" be the one everyone uses.

If you guys want to make a better editor you can make something that integrates directly with doukutsu-rs because then the editor and source could be made the same thing at that point, you'd just need to make CS's code more data driven.

Like this is why we have ports made and stuff it's so we can make things like this possible idk why you guys haven't been doing that more.
Reinvest into modding first before you guys focus on making flashy mods and shit. Work together for once instead of working on your 40 CSBDs for a sec that way we can make shit that isn't CSBDs with ease finally.

It isn't that hard to program an installer that asks you to supply some files that it's then gonna put in a different spot in your computer lol.

Edit:
JSYK CSE2 can't be forked on github but doukutsu-rs can. Nicalis is fine with drs but not cse2.
This is how things are afaik.

 

Work together for once instead of working on your 40 CSBDs for a sec that way we can make shit that isn't CSBDs with ease finally.

People don't like originality, sorry not sorry.

In all seriousness tho, the idea's not bad, and yes, we got D-RS as the example to use. It'd be nice to see your Godot idea be put into work tho, as the proof of concept. Because really all we would need is a guide on how to use the program. One thing that has always bothered me when CSE2 was brought upon the world was the fact that everyone involved in making mods with it refused to make a guide for it, like how users like CarrotLord or BLink or Thomas Xin did with x86, and to just flat out say for us to figure it out ourselves. The literal fucking programmers, who hold the knowledge and resources, decide to just say "fuck you" and not share any of it.

 

The reason I suggest porting CS to godot is what you guys should do is that'd literally solve our entire issue of "needing a powerful editor" in the first place because then you guys could just rely on that community's editor updates and just make an objectively better CS source code. At that point you're getting into some real CSE3 type shit.

Edit:
You'd just need to make an installer that puts all the assets from freeware in the right spot in the file structure in the code but even then Idk if that's even necessary lol you could probably just make "here's the godot port source you can open it in godot" and it'd be as simple as that.

 

People don't like originality, sorry not sorry.

In all seriousness tho, the idea's not bad, and yes, we got D-RS as the example to use. It'd be nice to see your Godot idea be put into work tho, as the proof of concept. Because really all we would need is a guide on how to use the program. One thing that has always bothered me when CSE2 was brought upon the world was the fact that everyone involved in making mods with it refused to make a guide for it, like how users like CarrotLord or BLink or Thomas Xin did with x86, and to just flat out say for us to figure it out ourselves. The literal fucking programmers, who hold the knowledge and resources, decide to just say "fuck you" and not share any of it.

Because "fucking programmers" never happen to know how to make documentation! It's like a thing, that is necessary, but nobody likes to do work on, because it actually involves having a brain and not copy-pasting from internet.

 

Because "fucking programmers" never happen to know how to make documentation! It's like a thing, that is necessary, but nobody likes to do work on, because it actually involves having a brain and not copy-pasting from internet.

As a "fucking programmer" myself, yeah documenting things is like, an extra step above. I'm normally just happy to get something to work, and actually documenting how it works after the fact can just be more difficult. It's a lil bit of a different skillset, it involves communication skills, and it often takes more time because you have to use more complex language, as opposed to simple code. And if you're a spaghetti programmer like me, it becomes even worse. I'm not the best, the things I make work functionally, but are often difficult for others to deal with.

 

The reason I suggest porting CS to godot is what you guys should do is that'd literally solve our entire issue of "needing a powerful editor" in the first place because then you guys could just rely on that community's editor updates and just make an objectively better CS source code. At that point you're getting into some real CSE3 type shit.

You're honestly approaching the problem wrongly.

I think @TrashboxBobylev's point is correct. Making a new engine won't fix the problem. The reason why people prefer freeware/CSE2 over d-rs is lack of available resources and documentation and I think part of this is combination of me not really willing to document everything and how the community partially lost interest in game after CSE2 takedown.

The amount of source mods made on top of d-rs code is smaller compared to CSE2 and most CSE2 mods seem to be based on existing resources made during 2019-2020.

And even I don't really feel interested as much in Cave Story stuff anymore, hence why d-rs feature development has pretty much slowed down.

 

I still think we should at the very least stick with D-RS over CSE2 imo.

Someone needs to sit down and document shit out better, maybe comment the code and make it uh... not Pixel code.
That said, you and I aren't really the people who can do that rn lol.
I don't know who else in the community would really care to invest into that, but ik there's a lot of other programmers.
D-RS is the safe option and it's not gonna get your github taken down by Nicalis, so you guys can actually fork it and work on it.
Since it's really just an "interpretation" of CS's code it's not the real code. But you guys are going to need to be respectful with Nicalis through this whole process, they've set the boundaries pretty clearly with us on that.
If they don't want you guys to go further on that I'm sure you'd find out very quickly considering how quickly Tyrone killed CSE2 after he found out lol.
They let NXEngine slide, so I think you guys will be in the clear if you do this.

 

Someone needs to sit down and document shit out better, maybe comment the code and make it uh... not Pixel code.

So why you don't do it? It seems like you have the most interest in it, so why not follow the wise words of Noxid... "Nobody will make your mod for you."

that said, you and I aren't really the people who can do that rn lol.

Oh. Just like the real politicians that are only able to shout slogans.

 

So why you don't do it? It seems like you have the most interest in it, so why not follow the wise words of Noxid... "Nobody will make your mod for you."

I didn't want to sound rude (Or discouraging!!!!!) but yeah there's a lot of "you guys should..." "we should..." "someone should..." in this thread but nothing's gonna happen if someone doesn't actually step up and do any of those things or start conversation of working together it's not gonna happen either.

I'm a hypocrite for saying this because I have trouble getting things started on my own but actions do speak louder than words and hypotheticals.

 

I mean, I'm just salty over how poorly CSE2 was handled. Even if it wouldn't change the outcome for what happens to it, even though there's still the amount of people who use it, it would've been nice for idiots like me to be able to use it too.

 

I'm just saying you guys are never gonna see any results with CSE2 because it's legally fucked.
Stop wasting your time with it because you guys know someone's gonna show your CSE2 mods to Nicalis just like they did with the code itself and you're all gonna start wondering why you're receiving ominous letters from Nicalis lmfao.

 

Stop wasting your time with it

More meaningless slogans!

Also, Randamu is very known (relatively to other mods) and I wasn't threatened to take it down during its whole 2.5 year existence nor in late February of 2022 (when it was at its peak).

 

I'm just saying you guys are never gonna see any results with CSE2 because it's legally fucked.
Stop wasting your time with it because you guys know someone's gonna show your CSE2 mods to Nicalis just like they did with the code itself and you're all gonna start wondering why you're receiving ominous letters from Nicalis lmfao.

This is implying everyone is doing CSE2 when freeware is still the recommended starting point for everyone.
And yes while it's been poorly documented there's plenty other things that have allowed for cool stuff, from modloader to Autumn's stuff.

 

More meaningless slogans!

Also, Randamu is very known (relatively to other mods) and I wasn't threatened to take it down during its whole 2.5 year existence nor in late February of 2022 (when it was at its peak).

Nicalis only took down CSE2 when someone mentioned it to them. They will inevitably find out because everyone in this community are loud-mouths.
There can't be a public github for a CSE2-derivative codebase because all forked public git repos can legally be DMCA'd. If there's any of Cave Story's original code in a public repo they will DMCA it.
Keeping a private github to a "select group of individuals" would also mean Nicalis would be able to DMCA the people involved as well as any Discord servers where it's distributed, yes, your account will be deleted if your server gets deleted by mods, that's usually what Discord staff does.

Quit acting like you didn't ask the people that're now in my studio for advice to get where you are now.
We made this bleeding edge shit already and you guys are like "yeah but what if I kept writing machine code and made my game in the world's least intuitive editor".
Games never get done because of this kind of shit. Cave Story and Harpy Star had to both have their old shit thrown out multiple times because as programmers we didn't know better and actively approached development through an iterative process like every other publisher that actually makes money and doesn't have to keep developing middling indie slop each year. People like the IWBTG dev think the mindset most of this community has regarding games is a joke.

This community should not be exempt from iterative growth as it's been done before many times in the past and clearly is happening in the present given the soaprun servers being a thing.
In discussing the annoyances I have in the community I'm communicating to the people that are actually trying to lead this place that I think they should focus on giving Nicalis and Pixel a market incentive to care about this fandom.
There's many AA teams that consider making Cave Story sequels and give up because this community is a dumpster fire. Why do you think Crystal Crisis is the only thing we've gotten lol. I've spoken with someone high up at NIS in person, I know what their priorities are and CS3D doesn't fall under that because of this place.

The CSMC would not have half of its culture today without my active involvement during the early days to help facilitate it.
Blink and I atleast owned up to being shitty leaders and let the current guys take over. Blink went to go do whatever he's doing now and I went to go focus on work, legal stuff, and school.
You're not taking the historical context of the community into account when you think of me and I think you're forgetting that I have a life outside of this place that's very productive.

We did our parts already.

Nobody that ever would want to mod a game would ever want to touch ASM, nor should they. It's too close to the metal and the skills you learn writing ASM will never be applicable in most jobs today, even the highest-paying ones. The compilers will always write better ASM code than you now. This modding community is dying specifically because you guys are actively refusing to help transition modding away from ASM even though people like Alula have handed the community a way out on a silver platter.

If you treat me like a "politician who knows nothing" you should understand that I don't just exist in this community and have been seeking professional counsel for these things for a while now. I've been a persistent figure in the community but I know that I'm more effective in an advisory position than in a position where I exist unchecked because nobody is infallable.

Other people have learned these lessons and forgiven eachother, and the ones that didn't left the forums because they couldn't be assed to solve this themselves.
"Leave it to the 12s to figure it out" has been the predominant ideology for everyone that's left and now it's 2024 and those 12s are all out of college.

 

It's stuff like this that makes me go "Okay yeah, maybe we should diverge back into where this community already was, before it became a standalone community for Cave Story all by itself". Should Cave Story's legacy be preserved and show what has influenced a majority of indie games nowadays? Absolutely. But honestly, who are we to actively say Cave Story is our lives while we got two big discord servers that are too afraid to express that themselves?

I am more than willing to move on, but it's up to everyone else to either say that they want to let go and remove the Cave Story and Studio Pixel branding from this community entirely, because let's face it, we genuinely do not deserve it, and become a general gaming forum/community or do we embrace it and fix it up to what Tyrone saw in us 16 years ago? While I admit I was a part of the general circlejerk towards newcomers, it's gotten to the point that the mentality is still actively displayed by older members, even with them pleading to people who left to come back and that they're now an inclusive group to all people, old and new.

Even if you guys no longer wish to be associated with Cave Story, at least show that you lot have a backup plan. Jade, Noxid, Matt, and other game developers originating from these forums, now stick to their own communities, and you got several well-known community members, for better or for worse, sticking to their personal friend groups. The two active discord servers, those are not friend groups in the slightest. And let me tell you right now, transitioning back to MiraiGamer sounds like, the best move this community can do right now, if we drop the Cave Story name. But seeing that you guys clearly don't want to and are trying to treat this like some of us are talking out of our asses (a language that translates well here), then how about you show the examples you claim to exhibit rather than tell us to do it ourselves? We've already done our parts, the ball is now in your court.

 

i have no horse in whatever race this is but if we are talking purely about increasing activity on the forum i think integrating a shoutbox (such as Siropu) would help with onboarding and general activity. directing foot traffic to new threads as they open and giving people a place to post with less effort in an IRC to facilitate low-commitment interactivity could be nice.

 

I think I mentioned an IRC thing alongside soaprun but I didn't know they still had those for this software. I haven't really seen a built-in forum IRC for a long time though it would be cool to see I'm worried the constant flow of bots we get could be a problem for that.

 

I'm just saying you guys are never gonna see any results with CSE2 because it's legally fucked.
Stop wasting your time with it because you guys know someone's gonna show your CSE2 mods to Nicalis just like they did with the code itself and you're all gonna start wondering why you're receiving ominous letters from Nicalis lmfao.

CSE2's source code clearly got taken down because it wasn't just a decompilation, it was an attempt to recreate the source code for CS as accurately as possible. Someone who had seen Pixel's source code said CSE2 looked exactly the same if you ignore things like comments. As long as whatever is built with CSE2 is closed-source then Nicalis won't care.

 

I'm gonna jump in and say a few things about this from my own perspective and understanding.

Looking through this thread, there seems to be a lot of ideas thrown around that might seem fine on paper but don't hold much weight in motion due to a lot of things that literally are not in control of. I think it's valid to want a bigger, more well-known community for a game you care about but the difference between Cave Story and say, Doom for example, is that the devs of Doom have had a hand in the community for years and, as much as you may not want to acknowledge it, it is WAY more popular than Cave Story will ever be, no matter what we do about it. The community for Doom is massive, because it has ALWAYS been massive. The developers of Doom are constantly communicating and engaging with the community. It's worth bringing Doom's community up because, from what I can tell, what they have seems very in line with what you want with this community, where they are constantly getting new people into it and invested and more Doom official works come out often enough to where you could say that their community is doing pretty well. They are a very welcoming community, too. Like I said, I'm bringing them up because it seems to be what you want this community to be.


Here's the deal though. Pixel doesn't really acknowledge the fanbase much for a lot of reasons but the biggest and more blunt one is that there's a language barrier and Pixel doesn't care about Cave Story as much as people seem to think he does. He still does, yeah, but...he's doing other things. He's raising a family, making other games. He seems more passionate about his work on Kero Blaster and stuff. Nicalis obviously does care about Cave Story but with how much straight up misinformation there is about their involvement with Cave Story and how bitter people are towards them in the indie scene for a lot of other reasons, they don't want to touch the fan community. It's easy to think that this community is responsible for that but we are not. The fact of the matter is that Pixel is not making more Cave Story projects because he doesn't want to. Nicalis will not make more Cave Story projects without Pixel's word and permission. Secret Santa was a fun little spinoff and, while we may get more of those, the unfortunate truth is that we will not be getting any big Cave Story projects. Even if Nicalis let fans make something, they won't do anything unless Pixel is at least involved with it. We are not getting a Sonic Mania for Cave Story, and we never will.

I also find that your perception of the community, as it is today, is very misinformed. This community is more welcoming than you might think, not just on a creative (modding) standpoint but also in general. There is an (OFFICIAL, by the way) Cave Story Discord server that has over 2.3k members in it and it is VERY active, almost every single day. It is also extremely welcoming and very easy to join. The CSMC has made a lot of progress in modding, with stuff like Autumn's Various Additions for example making a ton of things that only people who would've needed to know ASM to do, possible WITHOUT ASM. And not only that but every 3 months or so, Enlight hosts a modfest that usually gets at least 4-5 mods made for it every single time. That is still happening, and as interesting as it would be to expand it to the forums as well, it just serves as proof that this community is doing new things and is very active nowadays. We also don't have a big popular streamer that streams Cave Story projects all the time like Shayy or freaking John Romero, and the truth is that Cave Story won't really ever be big enough to have such a thing.

We don't have the stuff other communities have, but that is NOT our fault. It's circumstantial, Cave Story isn't as huge and popular like these other things are and there's not a lot we can do about that because our hands are kinda tied. We don't have the things you want us to have because we aren't, and won't ever be, big enough to. We also won't get any new huge Cave Story projects or anything like that because Pixel doesn't want to do them and Nicalis will not even consider the idea unless they know it'll be okay to. I feel like a lot of this thread is you seemingly blaming the community for what we don't have while also saying that we wouldn't be what we are without you. I don't want to be mean but, with how you seem to describe the community, I highly doubt you are ACTUALLY as active as you say. In fact, I'd even go as far as to say that you haven't been active in a long time here, and your perception comes from when you were and what you think it's like, rather than what it is ACTUALLY like. It feels a little bit ill-intentioned and willingly naive about what's here because you care more about what isn't.

Trust me, it'd be cool if we were a bigger community with more of a public view and we got cool projects every day that others see and acknowledge us for. But this isn't what this community is. Sorry.

Also, we do have a place that documents tools and other creative stuff we've done. It's http://wiki.doukutsu.club/. And no, this is not the fandom wiki. Obviously it's not a blatant advertisement for stuff like the previous one was but it's still being worked on and it's the best we have to offer right now.

I said my piece.