Discusion: Cave Story 3 ~ The Crowned Witch

Erm. Please link me just ONE post that Kageryushin made that has words of praises in it.

Done. So... Ready to lighten up?

 

Done. So... Ready to lighten up?

I'm pretty sure he meant about THIS particular mod. And if he didn't, I do .

@ linque: Kinda proves my theory on his Dual personality.

SP is a fuckin m*derator, btw .

 

I thought this was over already…

Constructive MY HAIRY ARSE. Kage is a troll, pure and simple, and you and jcys need to stop defending him. If you care to notice, he hasn't said a SINGLE good thing about this mod. A proper critic would point out what they didn't like WITHOUT the needless language and then make mention of what they did like as well.

No, that is not what a critic does. A critic merely gives opinions on whatever he is critiquing. He has no obligation to say anything good about it. If there are distinguishable pros, than they are inherent and will therefore be mentioned, at the very least probably. A “proper” critic can say whatever they want, Rotten Tomatoes being a perfect example of their possible venom. Sure, I could have pointed out things that I liked about the Mod, but all of these things come directly from Cave Story, and, in the end, these good traits are corrupted by the flaws. There’s no point.

It is the mark of a troll to NEVER say anything nice about the thing that they're trolling and NEVER admit they are wrong, and that is what is happening here. There is no logic and no real argument because the outcome will ALWAYS BE THE SAME.

I just admitted defeat and basically said that I was wrong yesterday night when I responded to Roonil that he had a point when he said that I was being too harsh and insulting.

Kage just got bored with shitting all over the Forum Mod thread and decided to start flaming this one in the hopes of getting more attention.

Okay, at this point, I’m just insulted. What is wrong with you? Have you even looked at that Topic lately? I’ve been attempting to learn how to Mod just so I can continue that project in Shi’s absence, so don’t you ever accuse me of any negative actions whatsoever when it comes to that Thread.

Most of the 'soul-rippingly' bad "flaws" he so carefully took the time to extract aren't even real flaws, just certain aspects that some people mightn't like. So what if you have to kill lots of enemies? So what if the plot isn't straightforward?

This is true right until you say that I dislike it because the plot isn’t straightforward. I don’t like the “plot” because it doesn’t exist in the first place publicly.

I know SP's english isn't great but obviously this is such an alien concept that widdle Kaggie can't get his head around it and thus has to trow a tantrum.

Wait, wut? What the crap does SP’s English have to do with this? What does that have to do with anything?

He made no mention of any of the interesting and enjoyable parts of the mod (graphics/music/design/story timeline) and has given absolutely no indication that he wants to see the mod bettered or improved in any way, which is kind of the entire purpose of constructive critisicm. No, what we have here is a troll, and nothing positive can ever come from it.

Okay, I don’t think any of the traits you mentioned are anything above average in any way. The graphics aren’t that outstanding. Most of them are just ripped from Cave Story and therefore don’t warrant analysis, at least not in my opinion. There’s nothing to say. I’d rather just praise Cave Story and not this Mod for such things. Admittedly, the new enemy graphics that were used in the Red Hell stage were very good. I should have praised them, but I didn‘t. I wasn‘t particularly impressed, but they weren‘t bad. They were quite well done, actually. The music was pretty much just completely ripped from Cave Story too. Some of the themes had slight edits, but ultimately they were the same songs. The design was straightforward and not particularly outstanding. I will give some credit to the large hall of falling spikes in the Egg Corridor, but that was mostly just tedious. Story timeline? The demo itself didn’t reveal anything that could validly be called a story, so I can’t really praise that either. In the end, why should I focus on the good things instead of the traits that require improvement? If the Mod is extremely good, I’ll dwell on its perfectection for awhile, but until then, I see no real point in pointing out how good it is. Now come on, DoubleThink, if I was really the troll you seem to think I am, I would have just ranted about how bad the Mod was and not given any real reason for why I disliked it.

And seriously I don't mean to be rude or anything but HOW DO YOU EXPECT SOMEONE TO REACT TO THIS KIND OF BULLSHIT? It is a perfectly natural respone to defend oneself and SP's handled it really well in my opinion. Someone just stormed in, and, without an ounce of respect or honesty, told him something he'd spent a couple of years on was total crap beyond the point of reparability. If Kage is aloud to get away with being such a dickwit then why isn't SP allowed to defend himself?

In the end, Shi did react rather well, but he completely ignored the criticism.

I'm a lot the same actually, but I've attempted to engage Kage on the intellectual level, twice, and he's been unable to back up a single thing he says. I'm sorry but I guess I just like siding against forum bullies for some strange and unfounded reason >.>;

When? I don’t quite remember when anything like what you describe occurred.

Perhaps I should have been clearer: he has admitted that he trolls on purpose and admitted that he thinks he is intellectually superior to several older and far more respected members of the forum purely because they don't use big nasty words like he does and aren't used to dealing with that kind of crap.

Okay. I did that at one point, but I have completely stopped now. There has been none of that in this entire Thread. I apologize for my past transgressions wherein these almost baseless opinions have influenced my posts. As you can see, this hasn’t occurred at any point recently.

Can you not see how arrogant and obnoxious he is in everything he writes? How he attacks people for no reason at all, including you, and then picks them apart based on how they respond to him? There's nothing natural about any of it. I understand what you're trying to do and I think it's great, really, but by siding with this jerk it seems to me like you're siding against all the other people he's needlessly insulted (whom I'm sure all feel very happy and dandy themselves), which is why I've been being so emotive in trying to get my point across and make it clear. He doesn't deserve your help and he definitely doesn't deserve your respect because he's done absolutely nothing to earn it and used every chance he can get to disearn it, and he's going to keep acting like an ass for as long as he thinks he can get away with it.

Okay, this is just utter bullshit. I have never once attacked a person for no reason whatsoever, especially not in this Topic. I have voiced completely valid criticism in a way that was admittedly harsher than required. Frankly, you’ve been forced to lie about what I’m doing here to incriminate me.

...does nobody else understand what I'm trying to say here?

Everyone does, DoubleThink, but only SP agrees, apparently, and mostly just because he’s the one under assault here. Okay, that was an underestimation, but still.

EDIT (forgot a part):

You folks need to stop thinking about morals and realize that we're dealing with an immoral person here. All you're doing at the moment is rewarding him for behaving like jerk and I can tell you now that that won't solve anything. He is not trying to better the forums with his posts and he is not doing it because he believes that it's right, he is doing it only to get attention for himself. And it's working too, judging by the 20 or so posts we lavish on him every time he decides to chuck an oopsie. He himself says that we shouldn't take him seriously (which he's so wonderfully keen to repeat every time it looks like he's losing an argument) and this is true, because nothing he says is of any value whatsoever. He doesn't need you to stand up for him until he bullies everyone into submission; what he needs is a good spank on the bum until he learns to behave himself.

You seem so very certain that you know my mentality, but you don't. You’re putting words in my mouth. This is all just a bunch of bullcrap made up to destroy my integrity. I did say that nobody should take me so seriously at one point, but I eventually admitted that this was just a bad excuse and stopped saying it.

 

I thought this was over already…

Arguments don't end just because you feel like ending them.

I just admitted defeat and basically said that I was wrong yesterday night when I responded to Roonil that he had a point when he said that I was being too harsh and insulting.

Y'mean this post?
http://www.cavestory.org/forums/posts/8027/
If so, all I see here is you nagging at SP for not doing exactly what you want not taking your 'advice', and sucking up to the other members.

Okay, at this point, I’m just insulted. What is wrong with you? Have you even looked at that Topic lately? I’ve been attempting to learn how to Mod just so I can continue that project in Shi’s absence, so don’t you ever accuse me of any negative actions whatsoever when it comes to that Thread.

I can see that you're eager to help out, but that doesn't change the fact that you were an arse there before, so I've every right to trip you up, thanks.

This is true right until you say that I dislike it because the plot isn’t straightforward. I don’t like the “plot” because it doesn’t exist in the first place publicly.
...
Wait, wut? What the crap does SP’s English have to do with this? What does that have to do with anything?

His English isn't great and so his story-telling ability in English won't be as good as it should be, I thought that would be obvious. And the version you played is over a year old which adds to that.

Okay, I don’t think any of the traits you mentioned are anything above average in any way. The graphics aren’t that outstanding. Most of them are just ripped from Cave Story and therefore don’t warrant analysis, at least not in my opinion. There’s nothing to say. I’d rather just praise Cave Story and not this Mod for such things. Admittedly, the new enemy graphics that were used in the Red Hell stage were very good. I should have praised them, but I didn‘t. I wasn‘t particularly impressed, but they weren‘t bad. They were quite well done, actually. The music was pretty much just completely ripped from Cave Story too. Some of the themes had slight edits, but ultimately they were the same songs. The design was straightforward and not particularly outstanding. I will give some credit to the large hall of falling spikes in the Egg Corridor, but that was mostly just tedious. Story timeline? The demo itself didn’t reveal anything that could validly be called a story, so I can’t really praise that either. In the end, why should I focus on the good things instead of the traits that require improvement? If the Mod is extremely good, I’ll dwell on its perfectection for awhile, but until then, I see no real point in pointing out how good it is. Now come on, DoubleThink, if I was really the troll you seem to think I am, I would have just ranted about how bad the Mod was and not given any real reason for why I disliked it.

Look, I can appreciate what you're trying to say here, but seriously, what the hell do you expect in a mod? Not every mod is going to be a Schism or a Jenka's Nightmare, and nor should they have to be to be enjoyable. I'm not terribly fond of the dozens of Igors myself, but at least I can manage to keep a civil tongue if I mention them. The sprites aren't particularly unique at the moment, but if you had actually payed attention to the thread you would have seen a great deal of work being done by folks like andwhy for the next release. The same goes for the music; this was in fact the first mod to incorporate new music, and most of it is not edits by older version of music by Pixel himself. And again if you had actually looked at the thread or even several other threads you would have seen SP's collection of music that intends to use. As for the level designs, I didn't think Schism's level designs were particularly unique in their own right, but of course nobody cares about that because the rest of it is so well-done. Why should you focus on the good things? How about so you can, oh I don't know, ENJOY YOURSELF? Yes you gave your opinions, but originally you made it very clear that you thought the mod was utter trash, sounding as though you didn't give a damn whether it actually improved or not. This is also backed up by the fact that you seem to like picking on SP for some reason, despite the fact that he's a mod, and never did anything to you in the first place. And unfortunately, the fact is that this is one of the better mods on the forums, if only due to its size and level of commitment, and if you don't like it then I don't see how you're going to like most of the other ones.

In the end, Shi did react rather well, but he completely ignored the criticism.

Now this is the shit that really gets up my alley. Countless times you have behaved as though you know you're deliberately attacking people and you know that they're going to react angrily and yet you still expect them to put up with it, like it's their fault somehow. What do you hope to prove by this? How do you think it makes you look? If you really aren't being serious when you do it then maybe you should put some fucking effort into making that clear.

When? I don’t quite remember when anything like what you describe occurred.

You know, the other coupla times we argued, and then you 'ignored' me after my second post. I'll point them out to you if you really can't remember.

Okay. I did that at one point, but I have completely stopped now. There has been none of that in this entire Thread. I apologize for my past transgressions wherein these almost baseless opinions have influenced my posts. As you can see, this hasn’t occurred at any point recently.

I can accept that, and for a while after you seemed decent enough, but I really can't see how you've changed between then and now. Maybe you don't attack people directly anymore, but you still use exactly the same tone in your posts and you still act like everyone else is wrong when they get offended by it. What do you except from people? Honestly?

Okay, this is just utter bullshit. I have never once attacked a person for no reason whatsoever, especially not in this Topic. I have voiced completely valid criticism in a way that was admittedly harsher than required. Frankly, you’ve been forced to lie about what I’m doing here to incriminate me.

Please don't make me go back and dig up the 20 or so posts where you've attacked someone seemingly out of nowhere after they had said nothing to you. I have other things to do. Like eat

Everyone does, DoubleThink, but only SP agrees, apparently, and mostly just because he’s the one under assault here. Okay, that was an underestimation, but still.

The only ones I've seen who don't agree with me are jcys and andwhy and possibly roonil to a degree, and perhaps this is a fault on my part but I don't understand why. The only reason you are a noteworthy member of this forum at all is because of your freakin' attitude problem. And again, you are admitting you are targetting SP on purpose, WHY? FOR WHAT?

You seem so very certain that you know my mentality, but you don't. You’re putting words in my mouth. This is all just a bunch of bullcrap made up to destroy my integrity. I did say that nobody should take me so seriously at one point, but I eventually admitted that this was just a bad excuse and stopped saying it.

So? Point out to me where this happened, I must have missed it as I don't read every thread all the time. If I'm just making up crap, then prove it. Explain why you act the way you do. Show an example. GIVE ME SOMETHING TO WORK WITH HERE. Not for my benefit but for everyone else's. I don't want spam and I don't want to dislike you and I don't want to have to keep getting mad like this but goddamnit I want this shit to end. Properly and permanently.

 

If you noticed there was an offer for Roonil to PM him in that post about it, obviously Roonil took him up on the offer. As you didn't notice in his post (because you NEVER bother to take the time to read them) he friggin' apologised for the harshness of his posts, and as you can see by his most recent posts he is trying to improve, but you are still attacking him about all his older posts. Why would he feel a need to improve at all if everyone just holds grudges?

If you continue to argue past this then I assume you are arguing just for the sake of it.

 

I'm not up to quoting every single line of the posts I missed, so I'll explain my opinion in short

If you noticed there was an offer for Roonil to PM him in that post about it, obviously Roonil took him up on the offer. As you didn't notice in his post (because you NEVER bother to take the time to read them) he friggin' apologised for the harshness of his posts, and as you can see by his most recent posts he is trying to improve, but you are still attacking him about all his older posts. Why would he feel a need to improve at all if everyone just holds grudges?

If you continue to argue past this then I assume you are arguing just for the sake of it.

Lol, the only PM's I've sent are to SP, and one WAYYY back to Kager, which I'm pretty sure excluded everything excpet for the words "STOOP IT!!!!!!!".

But the point is that redeeming oneself by apology isn't enough to unwarrant (that's a word, right?) criticism (or as you call it, "attacks").

I do try and not hold grudges, and I did venture in neutrality for the better part of this arguement. As far as I can remember, Xris and Atravir are the only ones to ever have pointed out what they thought of Kager's previous posts ("previous" to be defined as "in other threads"). And while Kager has given an apology, I wouldn't bet on him not repeating this. Note that I do not use the term "trolling", because I believe Kageryushin to be a frank - overfrank, really - kind of guy who needs to be a bit more considerate.

On the other hand, I feel it totally un-m*deratorish () behaviour on the part of S.P. to reveal the details of a PM regarding the functioning of the forums to just win a verbal argument that would've been better off without it. Even if a user DOES get warned, I believe it to be both very rude and unethical to parade about it with the rest of the members.

Verdict: Usage of simple formalities in speech helps out a LOT. "I think this mod can do with a lot of improvement" is a polite and to-the-point statement as opposed to "This mod is plain terrible". Even if Kager had taken the time to type out an "I think" or "In my opinion", I doubt we would have had a single negative reply to the post.

 

Arguments don't end just because you feel like ending them.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

Y'mean this post?
http://www.cavestory.org/forums/posts/8027/
If so, all I see here is you nagging at SP for not doing exactly what you want not taking your 'advice', and sucking up to the other members.

And you’re seeing only what you want to see. If I was really sucking up so much, or if I think my post is being a little too “nice,” I’ll say something about it. I very openly respect Roonil and Jcys had just come to my aid. It’s only natural that’d I praise them, just as it is only natural that Shi is defending himself.

I can see that you're eager to help out, but that doesn't change the fact that you were an arse there before, so I've ever right to trip you up, thanks.

Okay, no. I was never at any point insulting there. Not once, and you trying to find fault in a place that didn’t have any just makes you look like as big an “arse” as you think I am.

His English isn't great and so his story-telling ability in English won't be as good as it should be, I thought that would be obvious. And the version you played is over a year old which adds to that.

Okay. This is a valid point.

Look, I can appreciate what you're trying to say here, but seriously, what the hell do you expect in a mod? Not every mod is going to be a Schism or a Jenka's Nightmare, and nor should they have to be to be enjoyable. I'm not terribly fond of the dozens of Igors myself, but at least I can manage to keep a civil tongue if I mention them. The sprites aren't particularly unique at the moment, but if you had actually payed attention to the thread you would have seen a great deal of work being done by folks like andwhy for the next release. The same goes for the music; this was in fact the first mod to incorporate new music, and most of it is not edits by older version of music by Pixel himself. And again if you had actually looked at the thread or even several other threads you would have seen SP's collection of music that intends to use. As for the level designs, I didn't think Schism's level designs were particularly unique in their own right, but of course nobody cares about that because the rest of it is so well-done. Why should you focus on the good things? How about so you can, oh I don't know, ENJOY YOURSELF? Yes you gave your opinions, but originally you made it very clear that you thought the mod was utter trash, sounding as though you didn't give a damn whether it actually improved or not. This is also backed up by the fact that you seem to like picking on SP for some reason, despite the fact that he's a mod, and never did anything to you in the first place. And unfortunately, the fact is that this is one of the better mods on the forums, if only due to its size and level of commitment, and if you don't like it then I don't see how you're going to like most of the other ones.

This is mostly valid too. Of course, much like you, I don’t read every gigantic Thread in its entirety either. Also, just because I think something is worthless garbage doesn’t mean I don’t want it to improve, kind of like an old, beaten up house that someone buys so that they can fix it up and later sell it for an over-the-top price. Stop thinking that you know what I believe. You obviously don’t. You put words in my mouth and the ones that I do actually say you twist completely around to fit whatever purpose you want them to serve. I don’t like picking on Shi in any way and I don’t know why you think that. After I made a disparaging remark about his Mod because I didn’t like its design, he told me that there was a new version out and I promptly downloaded it. Needless to say, my opinion was not swayed, and I decided to make this clear. The only other time I ever bucked heads with him was a time when I saw what I thought to be a very open display of hypocrisy on his part. You said it yourself: he’s a Mod, and, if anything, I should be less obligated to chastise him, but I won’t be intimidated by mere status on nothing but a Forum when I see something that should be criticized. You may not think that this is the greatest of reasons, but this, again, is merely where our opinions diverge. And, again, the fact that you think it’s one of the better Mods is you’re opinion, and it’s no reason why I should change my methods. Shi has commitment, I’ll give him that, but that doesn’t necessarily make it good.

You know, the other coupla times we argued, and then you 'ignored' me after my second post. I'll point them out to you if you really can't remember.

Please do. I mean, I remember the time when I assaulted the movie thread, though I stopped that argument because I was dealing with the “Shi’s hypocrisy” alleged problem at that point.

I can accept that, and for a while after you seemed decent enough, but I really can't see how you've changed between then and now. Maybe you don't attack people directly anymore, but you still use exactly the same tone in your posts and you still act like everyone else is wrong when they get offended by it. What do you except from people? Honestly?

…

*Points to Andwhyisit‘s post.*

He can see it. You’re just biased for the sake of your argument.

Please don't make me go back and dig up the 20 or so posts where you've attacked someone seemingly out of nowhere after they had said nothing to you. I have other things to do. Like eat

It doesn’t matter if it was “out of nowhere” or whether they were talking to me or not. This is a public Forum, and I wasn’t even talking to you when you decided to enter the argument. It matters whether I had a reason or not, which I always did. Oh, by the way, “So? Point out to me where this happened. Show an example."

The only ones I've seen who don't agree with me are jcys and andwhy and possibly roonil to a degree, and perhaps this is a fault on my part but I don't understand why. The only reason you are a noteworthy member of this forum at all is because of your freakin' attitude problem. And again, you are admitting you are targetting SP on purpose, WHY? FOR WHAT?

Is Xristosx so insignificant that you forgot to mention him? Well, he doesn’t agree with my methods, but he doesn’t disagree with the fact that I have the right to critique how I want.

Also, again, you’re twisting my words. That sentence was somewhat ambiguous, but really, the only likely meaning to it was that SP is the one I’m criticizing in this situation. Absolutely nothing more.

So? Point out to me where this happened, I must have missed it as I don't read every thread all the time. If I'm just making up crap, then prove it. Explain why you act the way you do. Show an example. GIVE ME SOMETHING TO WORK WITH HERE. Not for my benefit but for everyone else's. I don't want spam and I don't want to dislike you and I don't want to have to keep getting mad like this but goddamnit I want this shit to end. Properly and permanently.

Please don't make me go back and dig up the twenty or so posts and explain to you every time why I was critiquing that person.

You do see the irony here, don’t you?

 

As you didn't notice in his post (because you NEVER bother to take the time to read them) he friggin' apologised for the harshness of his posts, and as you can see by his most recent posts he is trying to improve, but you are still attacking him about all his older posts.

I have read that damned post 10 times over and I cannot see the word 'sorry' in it anywhere nor can I see where he apoligised. Maybe you should point it out to me if it's so obvious.

If you continue to argue past this then I assume you are arguing just for the sake of it.

Fine, I'll shut up then. If you can't see a single point I was trying to make in all that jargon then I guess I'll just put up with it. I overracted and I'm sorry for that but I'm standing by my point that his attitude is unnecessary.

 

I have read that damned post 10 times over and I cannot see the word 'sorry' in it anywhere nor can I see where he apoligised. Maybe you should point it out to me if it's so obvious.


Fine, I'll shut up then. If you can't see a single point I was trying to make in all that jargon then I guess I'll just put up with it. I overracted and I'm sorry for that but I'm standing by my point that his attitude is unnecessary.

Just PM me the rest if you feel so strongly about it.

 

Hopeless...

*walks out of this argument*

 

look i will forgive you if you apologise for what you did at the start to me and clear up things with the other people you have hurt and try to be ethical about peoples feeling when you post because not all people can take the way you post, look im pretty sure if you can do those 3 we can all enjoy the forums

 

Hopeless...

*walks out of this argument*

You are a firm believer in the e-penis aren't you?

Edit - 667th post! lol. I FORGOTTEN MY 666th POST! I'M NOT SATANYMORE!

 

In the end, Shi did react rather well, but he completely ignored the criticism.

Excuse me, but isn't that way rude? You complain about my "hypocriteness", but: You blame us for "putting" something in your mouth which isn't there, while you're actually interpreting something into my post with isn't there too.

On the other hand, I feel it totally un-m*deratorish () behaviour on the part of S.P. to reveal the details of a PM regarding the functioning of the forums to just win a verbal argument that would've been better off without it. Even if a user DOES get warned, I believe it to be both very rude and unethical to parade about it with the rest of the members.

It's not my fault he doesn't believe me. Actually he should show some respect and believe what I'm saying, but he doesn't. So I'm showing him a quote.

So, I'm going to do something, I already should have done before. If anyone is still interested in this thread, or whatever, just PM me. It's my mod (my thread) anyway.

~ Closed ~

 

Calmed down? Fine.
Actually the demo is 1,5 years old, so don't expect much.

I found something really interesting:

http://gngnir.nobody.jp/cavestory/faq/tips/5.html

http://ameblo.jp/shootinggame-no-kobeya/entry-10060163112.html

http://gngnir.nobody.jp/cavestory/news/menu.html

http://charm.ziyu.net/bbs/doukutsu/charm.cgi?page=40

Search for Crowned on all those links. Japanese people know about this mod

 

Calmed down? Fine.
Actually the demo is 1,5 years old, so don't expect much.

I found something really interesting:

http://gngnir.nobody.jp/cavestory/faq/tips/5.html

http://ameblo.jp/shootinggame-no-kobeya/entry-10060163112.html

http://gngnir.nobody.jp/cavestory/news/menu.html

http://charm.ziyu.net/bbs/doukutsu/charm.cgi?page=40

Search for Crowned on all those links. Japanese people know about this mod

First link they're insulting it.

Second they're stealing it.

Third and fourth it's there because it's just another Doukutsu Mod. Well, I'm not entirely sure about the third one.

 

First link they're insulting it.

Second they're stealing it.

Third and fourth it's there because it's just another Doukutsu Mod. Well, I'm not entirely sure about the third one.

I thought the same about the 3rd, and the 4rd. But how you know about the first and secound?

 

i think the mods gonna be released after 20 screen shots XD

 

Third and fourth it's there because it's just another Doukutsu Mod. Well, I'm not entirely sure about the third one.

First and third actually because the description is the same for both, fourth is a forum discussion. My googlish is improving.

 

Couldn't resist clicking "OMFG JUST SHUT THE [EDIT] UP AND FINISH YOUR [EDITING] DEMO FOR SH*T!" .

And your new sig rox, SP

 

And your new sig rox, SP

Best sig ever!

But how the heck did I miss it?

Couldn't resist clicking "OMFG JUST SHUT THE [EDIT] UP AND FINISH YOUR [EDITING] DEMO FOR SH*T!" .

I need an option for "When andwhy stops being lazy and actually finishes the spriting".