Mod Promotion

Hi forums. I haven't been around much lately because I am studying/I am a bad friend and I feel like a poo head for it.

So, the topic of conversation: Today, Tumblr discovered King's Story and collectively flipped their lids. At this point, I realized that there's a huge segment of the fandom that is unaware of the existence of Cave Story mods. I would like to change that.

I am compiling a Tumblr masterpost of ten "must play" Cave Story mods. I will briefly summarize each one, discuss it's difficulty level and how complete it is. DT's thread is already a huge help in this regard.

More precisely, forum, what would you consider as the ten best/'must play' mods? What mods would you recommend to someone who's just finished/discovered Cave Story and wants more?

At the moment, I'm definitely going to promote and discuss:

King's Story
Cave Story Redesign
WTF Story
Jenka's Nightmare

 

At this point, I realized that there's a huge segment of the fandom that is unaware of the existence of Cave Story mods. I would like to change that.

Why

 

Why

I'm not even sure why you'd ask that, to be honest.

But I think that if I put time and effort into creating a mod, I would want as many people to see, play and enjoy it as possible. If the creators of these mods made them for their own personal use or for their personal circles, why are they freely available to download from these forums? In essence, I am assuming that the creators of mods generally create those mods to be played and enjoyed by the world at large/by a wide audience. I am therefore assuming that publicity is a desirable thing.

Like... Without intending this as a personal attack, I honestly can't process your logic, we must be on two entirely different pages. If I write a book, what happens: do I keep it to myself, or do I try to get as many people interested in it as possible? If I love and admire a creation by someone else, why is it surprising that I want to get others to appreciate it as well?

If you meant "Why" as in "Why, we have enough 12 year olds here already", my answer is this: 12 year olds don't use Tumblr. 16-year-old girls do. Different, equally problematic kettle of fish.

 

Wow, I can't believe you are doing this.

It's nice of you to do this, but real modders won't care so much. They know how to promote their own mods.

Why do modders mod for free? Well, obviously they cannot mod for profit,
since they are mainly just ripping off Pixel's hard work.

First, there were commercial games. Then, there was Pixel.
Pixel looked at the world and said, "Let there be new indie games!"
Suddenly there were games.
And they were good.

If you're trying to mod to be famous, you should really switch to a different hobby.
Modding Cave Story will never make anyone famous.

Do you remember what the Hermit Gunsmith said?
That, even if one person uses what he forged, he will be happy?

Pixel knows that, even if one person has played his games, he will be happy.
My mods have at least 1 download each. I am content.
All other modders should also be content even if all their mods have just 1 download or more. They don't need fancy prizes.

 

But I think that if I put time and effort into creating a mod, I would want as many people to see, play and enjoy it as possible. If the creators of these mods made them for their own personal use or for their personal circles, why are they freely available to download from these forums? In essence, I am assuming that the creators of mods generally create those mods to be played and enjoyed by the world at large/by a wide audience.

Posting a mod here isn't the same thing as wanting the whole internet to see it. I would think that if someone really wanted the world to see their work, they'd show it around of their own accord, or ask others to assist. I won't get into all of the specifics right now, but suffice to say that this site has a history of emphasis on respecting individual modders' wishes and creations, and if someone doesn't want their work plastered everywhere (e.g. because it's early in development) we should make some effort to appreciate that. In this case that would mean getting consent, wherever possible, from those whose mods you want to show off, if this goes ahead.

I am therefore assuming that publicity is a desirable thing.

I'm all for bringing more people who are genuinely interested to the site, but there's a fine line between opening up the possibility to those who are and crass advertisement. I don't mind seeing interest groups such as the Steam group(s), but am highly repelled by the thought of drawing the attention of certain indifferent types from every corner of the internet. I'm feeling particularly apprehensive about the fact that you brought up my mod guide, which I'm in the process of totally overhauling and am not at all happy with in its current form and really don't want anybody outside of this site to see

I also find it a little difficult to believe that most of those who have an interest in CS mods or getting involved in the forums wouldn't already be here (or at least have been here at some point) when this is a niche interest at best. For instance, I know that a few people from the Gang Garrison 2 forums have played some of the mods here, but none of them have really joined the community (aside from sirtophat maybe, I can't remember which site he found first). This is the way it's appeared to me to be regarding every other modding community I've encountered as well (e.g. Pokemon, Final Fantasy); that those who are interested enough will most likely look into it on their own.

I honestly can't process your logic, we must be on two entirely different pages.

If you think about it, if I (or someone else) had really felt like advertising the site around, we probably would have done it by now

If I love and admire a creation by someone else, why is it surprising that I want to get others to appreciate it as well?

I always try to gauge carefully whether or not someone/some group will really appreciate something before I show it to them. Or maybe I like keeping some pleasures to myself Could you link the Tumblr in question? That would make it easier to see what kind of rabble err, interest group we're dealing with.

 

what would you consider as the ten best/'must play' mods? What mods would you recommend to someone who's just finished/discovered Cave Story and wants more?

At the moment, I'm definitely going to promote and discuss:

King's Story
Cave Story Redesign
WTF Story
Jenka's Nightmare

All very good picks... Jenka's Nightmare should definitely be included, but you may want to cover both the original and MagicDoors completation. It's going to get a really awesome update soon.

And on the note of completations, would you consider it shameless of me to propose Curly's Past, my own completation of Kaeso's mod Curly's Story?

Other mods that deserve recognition...

Hayden's Fourth Ending,
CarrotLord's A Lost Land,
and perhaps Mimiga Army (it's a good mod but it gets a little lost near the end)

So that's eight... if you wanted to, you could include also a couple Japanese mods. Iron Bond is another take on a Curly centric prequel and then there's Iron Bird Story which is a sequel set in a parallel dimension. They are both stunningly good but they are, as said, in Japanese...

 

Uh oh, that's a lot to respond to.

(Everything.)

Good post. I didn't think of it that way, but what you said is essentially true.

Posting a mod here isn't the same thing as wanting the whole internet to see it. I would think that if someone really wanted the world to see their work, they'd show it around of their own accord, or ask others to assist. I won't get into all of the specifics right now, but suffice to say that this site has a history of emphasis on respecting individual modders' wishes and creations, and if someone doesn't want their work plastered everywhere (e.g. because it's early in development) we should make some effort to appreciate that. In this case that would mean getting consent, wherever possible, from those whose mods you want to show off, if this goes ahead.

Point taken on the whole "it's not ready yet" issue, and double points because none of the mods I listed up there are 100% complete.

I'm all for bringing more people who are genuinely interested to the site, but there's a fine line between opening up the possibility to those who are and crass advertisement. I don't mind seeing interest groups such as the Steam group(s), but am highly repelled by the thought of drawing the attention of certain indifferent types from every corner of the internet. I'm feeling particularly apprehensive about the fact that you brought up my mod guide, which I'm in the process of totally overhauling and am not at all happy with in its current form and really don't want anybody outside of this site to see

Oh, I wasn't going to use it directly, and I'm aware of your issues with it. I just meant that it inspired a similar format in which I can do my "top ten" list with, i.e. ranking by difficulty, estimated play time and level of completion.

I also find it a little difficult to believe that most of those who have an interest in CS mods or getting involved in the forums wouldn't already be here (or at least have been here at some point) when this is a niche interest at best. For instance, I know that a few people from the Gang Garrison 2 forums have played some of the mods here, but none of them have really joined the community (aside from sirtophat maybe, I can't remember which site he found first). This is the way it's appeared to me to be regarding every other modding community I've encountered as well (e.g. Pokemon, Final Fantasy); that those who are interested enough will most likely look into it on their own.

It's not that hard to believe when you consider that, thanks to Nicalis porting out to everywhere, people are still playing/discovering Cave Story for the very first time. I would have had no idea that mods were even a thing if I didn't come across the tribute site (which I saw before the forums).

But yeah, to clarify, I'm not interested in bringing people to the forums or the tribute site. I'm interested in getting people to download/play mods. Like you said, most of the people who want to be here already are.

I always try to gauge carefully whether or not someone/some group will really appreciate something before I show it to them. Or maybe I like keeping some pleasures to myself Could you link the Tumblr in question? That would make it easier to see what kind of rabble err, interest group we're dealing with.

Boy, if I adhered to that principle, I don't think anyone would read what I write or look at what I draw, ever.

Remember that artist who did all those Cave Story humanizations? Her and her followers. But, like I said, I'm only interested in making people aware that mods exist and they're good and they should play em, not getting them to join here.

All very good picks... Jenka's Nightmare should definitely be included, but you may want to cover both the original and MagicDoors completation. It's going to get a really awesome update soon.

And on the note of completations, would you consider it shameless of me to propose Curly's Past, my own completation of Kaeso's mod Curly's Story?

Other mods that deserve recognition...

Hayden's Fourth Ending,
CarrotLord's A Lost Land,
and perhaps Mimiga Army (it's a good mod but it gets a little lost near the end)

So that's eight... if you wanted to, you could include also a couple Japanese mods. Iron Bond is another take on a Curly centric prequel and then there's Iron Bird Story which is a sequel set in a parallel dimension. They are both stunningly good but they are, as said, in Japanese...

Yep, if I end up doing it, I will definitely cover the original and Revived and explain the difference between the two.

And no, not at all, I'll just have to play it first. And I can't believe I forgot Fourth Ending, especially considering the intended audience of my masterpost. CarrotLord's mod is a good inclusion too, but I have never played Mimiga Army. But thanks for your suggestions, they actually helped a lot.

 

Mod Promotion?
Noxid and GIR. They're pretty cool guys. Tell your friends.

 

I've always felt CSTS could do with a semi-official 'mods' page attached to the main site, with the mods searchable by category, such as finished/unfinished/abandoned, etc, and with a go-to section for mods which the community has recognized as being notable and/or of high quality.

DT's thread is a goldmine, but it can be daunting for a newcomer to sort the wheat from the chaff. Ultimately, I feel that we should have a little faith that when he's got the time, DT will polish up the thread and organize it better to the point where we can just say "look, here's an easy to understand list of cool Cave Story mods", and link to his thread.

 

My personal view of promotional stuff is that if people like my work enough they will share it / give feedback of their own accord. Trying to tell other people to look at everything you do just makes you sound like some douchebag on soundcloud and nobody likes that. Or at least, I don't. If you think there are other people that would enjoy it, then I'd be happy if they did. But I'm also happy to continue just making things to develop my skills and make things because *I* want to make them.
At the same time, if it's impossible for people to even know they exist then it's hard for people to find and enjoy them, which is why I am pro- for a well-formatted, user-friendly mod index or the like, such as other modding communities have.

@andwhyisit I was actually thinking they wanted to promote *other people* to being moderators. Perish the thought

 

My personal view of promotional stuff is that if people like my work enough they will share it / give feedback of their own accord. Trying to tell other people to look at everything you do just makes you sound like some douchebag on soundcloud and nobody likes that. Or at least, I don't. If you think there are other people that would enjoy it, then I'd be happy if they did. But I'm also happy to continue just making things to develop my skills and make things because *I* want to make them.
At the same time, if it's impossible for people to even know they exist then it's hard for people to find and enjoy them, which is why I am pro- for a well-formatted, user-friendly mod index or the like, such as other modding communities have.

@andwhyisit I was actually thinking they wanted to promote *other people* to being moderators. Perish the thought

Ah, but Noxid, you're forgetting that the whole issue here is that there are people that don't actually know a modding community for Cave Story exists at all, and better yet, people are expressing interest now that they've seen the tip of the iceberg. It's not the same as being a self-promoting douchebag, walking around and telling every last soul about your awesome soundcloud what-have-you, it's making a masterpost that will only be seen by everyone who tracks the "Cave Story" tag, and hell, it can't be self promotional, it's not even my own content!

I would like that. If an index like that is made, it would be beneficial. My masterpost wouldn't really have a purpose. Instead of discussing mods from my own perspective, I could just go, "Hey, you guys, if you really want to see more mods, just go to this index page over here to see if anything interests you." I think, in general, it would make all of the modding section's content more accessible to newbies/outsiders/etc.

 

The responses to this thread kind of surprised me. I don't see much of a problem with this idea, honestly. I consider it beneficial.
(Then again, I don't make mods so maybe I'm "wrong")

 

I don't really see an issue with spreading the things you love. It's not like we get on people's cases whenever someone makes a thread in the indie games section.

"What if the creator didn't want you to make this thread? Did you get his permission? Gosh! I'm sure he's very unappreciative of you spreading this around."

And if you have a problem with people sharing your work then you really shouldn't be posting it on the internet at all.

 

hell, it can't be self promotional, it's not even my own content!

Right, when I said "you" I really meant "I".
The jist of my point was that self-promotion isn't really cool but promotion by people who aren't involved / invested in the project is cool. Hell, I put *far* more stock in word-of-mouth recommendations than advertisements or marketing or clever trailers.

 

I don't really see an issue with spreading the things you love. It's not like we get on people's cases whenever someone makes a thread in the indie games section.

"What if the creator didn't want you to make this thread? Did you get his permission? Gosh! I'm sure he's very unappreciative of you spreading this around."

And if you have a problem with people sharing your work then you really shouldn't be posting it on the internet at all.

I tend to agree. It's good that we're on the same wavelength, as usual.

At the same time, I guess I also understand DT/Noxid's concerns. DT doesn't want more twelve-year-olds to clean up after, Noxid doesn't want to painted in the light of "self promotional douche bag" (disregarding that what I'm doing is making a master post that anyone tracking the CS tag will see, not posting comments on the pages of individual people who seem interested, a la "nice track! listen to my music!").

In essence, when I get around to it, I'll make sure the form is elegant.

Edited for reply:

Right, when I said "you" I really meant "I".
The jist of my point was that self-promotion isn't really cool but promotion by people who aren't involved / invested in the project is cool. Hell, I put *far* more stock in word-of-mouth recommendations than advertisements or marketing or clever trailers.

It's true. And I feel the same way you do.

 

I think this is a good idea. But why has nobody mentioned Schism for the list?

re: attracting too many 12-year-olds: I doubt that would really be much of a problem. I don't imagine that a significant portion of people who see/play the mods would feel compelled to join the forums.

 

Schism, Broxxus, TWoR, Eternal Chaos, Something by Nator (if you don't mind things being horribly incomplete), Boss Rush, Magic~ (because the Future is too short probably)
ALSO if these people have never seen cave story mods before, you may want to throw Original Sin at them

 

i loved seriousface's thing
throw that in there maybe?

 

I agree with GIR, WD and Numbers. I can kind of see where everyone else is coming from, but I think that it would be good for people to know about the mods that have been made in this community, as people put work into them, and some of them aren't very popular. Has anyone suggested CS Redesign yet? I don't want to go over the thread again, but that should definitely be here.

 

And if you have a problem with people sharing your work then you really shouldn't be posting it on the internet at all.

We don't really work on this basis, though. Mods of mods aren't allowed without permission (as you're familiar with), nor is use of 2x res, so if we were going to go that far we might as say "well uh you posted it here so you have to put up with whatever anyone else does to it" (which doesn't happen). It also begs the question of *why* anyone here would go against the creator's wishes and spread something around for any reason other than spite.

The last time this came up may expand this topic further, for those who weren't here or who'd like a refresher.

DT doesn't want more twelve-year-olds to clean up after,

12yo's are the least of my concerns, I'm more worried about trolls and the like. Or if you mean in terms of mod quality, really I'm happy whenever any (not-too-plagiarised) mod is posted, no matter who made it. We're in the process of overhauling the dev section at the moment which should hopefully improve its quality too.


I'll take this chance now to talk about modding and its connection with Pixel. First of all, mods don't deserve to be given as much credit as original titles, unless they're edited to the point that they might as well have been made using a different engine I suppose. There's no reason why we shouldn't work towards making them as good as we can manage, but it's equally as important to keep what we do here in perspective. I've always thought that the most respectful thing we can do for Pixel is to bother him about it as little as possible (e.g. on his message board), and so by proxy keep the mods section unobtrusive and localised. The poor fellow has always appeared so in over his head Over time, I've come to wonder if he might be more bothered my Japanese mods than by ours seeing as they're closer to home, or more recently Nicalis trying to port his game to everything with a screen and a couple of buttons, but it still feels like a small concession to make in return for what we've (kind of) been allowed to get away with here.


If I had to mention one mod for the list, it may as well be Take 8, seeing as public release was exactly what it was designed for and everyone who worked on it would have known that (also, it's actually finished(ish)).