Heaven and Hell - CANCELLED

So, I decided to watch Dunc stream Heaven and Hell, and it's a very good thing I was there.
See, there was something... peculiar about the maps that you get sent to on your first errand. Something... familiar. Why, they were remarkably similar to some of the maps found in Iron Bird Story, a Japanese mod from Doukutsu Uploader!
Don't believe me? Take a look at these:

Spoiler

Spoiler

These are screenshots of Iron Bird Story's maps...

Spoiler

Spoiler

And these are screenshots of your maps.

Let's get this straight. Inspiration is one thing, yet plagiarism is completely different. The maps in question are unacceptable, plain and simple. You can't just take a map from another person's mod, make slight changes to it, and then call it your own map. You may call it inspiration, but when you compare the maps side-by-side, they're nothing but copies.

On a side note, I can't say that I'm happy about the sprites. The way you word it, you make it sound like you looked at the sprites of the Japanese mods, and then used what you saw to make your own sprites. However, when Dunc made it to Avalon City, it quickly became clear that you took sprites directly from Iron Bird Story. This is somewhat forgivable, though, because mods occasionally borrow sprites from other mods and credit them in the process.

 

permalinks to stream:
part one
part two
an internet cutout made the recordings split up

 

Also, Duncathan, I've seen your Live Stream. You got frustrated at Rave Story because you died while battling a repaint of the Red Demon. Quite clearly, you have issues dealing with things that are not a breeze, and as such I intend to ignore any contentions you have brought up.

Oh boy this is incredible. Ask Polar Star what he thinks of that. The issue wasn't that I wasn't good, it was that the fight was unbalanced. I don't complain about difficulty. I complain about fake difficulty, which is not a player issue, but a design issue. I'll explain the concept during the stream. I can assure you, though, that if you simply disregard my advice and criticism, it will not look very good for you. Many respected modders (Tpcool, PolarStar, even Noxid and ZarroTsu) take my advice into consideration because I /do/ know what I'm talking about. Don't make yourself look stupid by completely disregarding me.

Oh no yeah RaveStory was totally unfair on launch and Dunc was completely in the right to have a hard time with it. I made the mistake of creating a mod from start to scratch without posting demos for people to play (aside from 1 guy who didn't have a hard time so we never noticed how hard it was), so it came out really hard. I think it's probably okay now, but Duncs stream was super helpful in letting me know what changes I needed to make ASAP. The guy knows what he's talking about.

I can't take advice about difficulty from someone whose "hard" is my "easy".

No. NO.

You HAVE to take the advice of someone who's "hard" is your "easy". I didn't for RaveStory, and that's why Dunc (and others) had a hard time. I was too good at my own mod. To make things harder for myself, I had to make it WAY harder for everyone else. But that felt fine for me, so I didn't notice. So if the majority of people playing your mod are telling you that it's too hard (i.e. so challenging that it's not just an obstacle to overcome, but straight up unfun) than you really have to tone it down, or everyone's going to have a bad time.

...Also the map plagiarism is super not cool man.

 

I realized I didn't explain a few things I'd wanted to during stream. I'll write out a post later.
also, to add to what polar said: if you think my complaint was invalid because you played the mod and didn't have trouble I will point out that my feedback (among others) got him to rebalance the mod within 6 hours of release. You never played the hard version.

 

Please stop getting mad about people not being detailed; I am going to go into detail later today when I stream. I'll stream at probably around 4:30 Saskatchewan time. It's 3:00 right now.

Oh boy this is incredible. Ask Polar Star what he thinks of that. The issue wasn't that I wasn't good, it was that the fight was unbalanced. I don't complain about difficulty. I complain about fake difficulty, which is not a player issue, but a design issue. I'll explain the concept during the stream. I can assure you, though, that if you simply disregard my advice and criticism, it will not look very good for you. Many respected modders (Tpcool, PolarStar, even Noxid and ZarroTsu) take my advice into consideration because I /do/ know what I'm talking about. Don't make yourself look stupid by completely disregarding me.
Stream's on now, by the way. We're ten minutes in, sorry.
Stream's over.

How was the Box Troll fight thingy unbalanced? I easily beat that boss, it's very easy to avoid taking any damage at all by just jumping over him and ducking under him.

So, I decided to watch Dunc stream Heaven and Hell, and it's a very good thing I was there.
See, there was something... peculiar about the maps that you get sent to on your first errand. Something... familiar. Why, they were remarkably similar to some of the maps found in Iron Bird Story, a Japanese mod from Doukutsu Uploader!
Don't believe me? Take a look at these:

Spoiler

Spoiler

These are screenshots of Iron Bird Story's maps...

Spoiler

Spoiler

And these are screenshots of your maps.

Let's get this straight. Inspiration is one thing, yet plagiarism is completely different. The maps in question are unacceptable, plain and simple. You can't just take a map from another person's mod, make slight changes to it, and then call it your own map. You may call it inspiration, but when you compare the maps side-by-side, they're nothing but copies.

On a side note, I can't say that I'm happy about the sprites. The way you word it, you make it sound like you looked at the sprites of the Japanese mods, and then used what you saw to make your own sprites. However, when Dunc made it to Avalon City, it quickly became clear that you took sprites directly from Iron Bird Story. This is somewhat forgivable, though, because mods occasionally borrow sprites from other mods and credit them in the process.

I asked on the DU thread who made that mod SPECIFICALLY so I could give credit to it, but nobody ever answered me and for whatever reason my post was deleted (might've been my internet connection, who knows). I will now add the proper credit since I now have the information I needed. I fully intended to give proper credit, but I can't do that since... you know... I don't speak/read Japanese and people are incapable of answering questions (or my internet was being sucky as usual on the DU thread). I will add this information.

I have put a few map tiles from another mod in the game, can you identify the mod's name and creator for me?

 

I asked on the DU thread who made that mod SPECIFICALLY so I could give credit to it, but nobody ever answered me and for whatever reason my post was deleted

That doesn't mean you can just go ahead and use someone else's stuff. Jeez.

I have put a few map tiles from another mod in the game, can you identify the mod's name and creator for me?

...are you serious?

 

I realized I didn't explain a few things I'd wanted to during stream. I'll write out a post later.
also, to add to what polar said: if you think my complaint was invalid because you played the mod and didn't have trouble I will point out that my feedback (among others) got him to rebalance the mod within 6 hours of release. You never played the hard version.

I'm watching the streams now. I'll ask questions as they arise.

1. What's "this and this" from the folder? The window.rect isn't a necessary file? Good to know. I always include the original because I've seen other (notable) modders do it.
2. I never liked the Balcony music myself, I liked the tone of the old one better. I decided myself (before I saw this, actually) to change it back.
3. I fixed the moving clouds. In both those rooms.
4. Good idea with the breakable blocks.
5. Not my facepic of the Doctor! I'm still looking for facepics of character's, I work with what I've got.
6. The Void Ending serves the purpose of representing what I call "aspects of religion". It may be annoying in a game but it serves a philosophical purpose that is important. It stays.
7. (At this point, I can't help but recall a scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail as you repeatedly interrupt yourself or go on exceedingly long on a tangent. GET ON WITH IT!)
8. The Doctor said "You will be rewarded." He didn't say who. King's dialogue shows you who is rewarding him specifically AND hints at what the reward will be.
9. I have no idea what "disonant" means, and you are the only person to complain about it. Tough tiddles.
10. Are you really criticizing map design so heavily that you're TRYING to find ways to add comments on map design? That room, of course, is my own. Others are borrowed from Iron Bird Story as I now can effectively conclude.
11. I gave credit for the Exploding Star and attempted to do my best to credit the map and sprites. Apparently my lack of knowledge was unacceptable, however. In the future I will try and find the map owners BEFORE I release the game.
12. JEBUS I'm going to leave this here for now, I have things I need to do, I'll post further comments later. (Excuse me a minute).
13. (Picking up where I left off). Cthulu is also a reset that doesn't send you back to the cave.

That doesn't mean you can just go ahead and use someone else's stuff. Jeez.


...are you serious?

I tried to give credit. As you can see, I try my best to give credit where credit is due. I have also rectified the mistake. But it was a mistake. I had no intention of flaunting this around as entirely my own work. In fact, in reality, only the design for certain maps and the storyline are mine. As well as the myChar sprites. And a few others. But I'd say a good 50% of this mod (from music, to sprites, to art) was borrowed from (and at least attempted to be credited to) modders. The titlescreen, edited facepics, and music are all works of other people. Well, I made the ORGs myself, but they're merely transcripts from sheet music I've found in books and online. I realize that I did not make it obvious enough that there were sprites and maps that I used from other mods. I will correct this mistake and I assure you I meant no harm in it.

EDIT:

My goodness gracious I've heard enough of this plagiarism stuff (continuing to watch the stream). I attempted to give credit before and have given credit now. It was an honest mistake, and it won't happen again.

 

Wow

 

How was the Box Troll fight thingy unbalanced? I easily beat that boss, it's very easy to avoid taking any damage at all by just jumping over him and ducking under him.

If I could remember, the Box Troll's difficulty was originally close to the vanilla difficulty of the Red Demon. It's been nerfed in later updates, making him more beatable. I don't think skill has really anything to do with the fairness of the battle. It's still possible to lose to him on the first few tries, before and after the nerf.

 

• I have no idea what "disonant" means, and you are the only person to complain about it. Tough tiddles.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dissonant

Also I'm gonna be the second person to complain about it; your song edits sound bad.

And to add on the plagiarism thing...okay, you're crediting the author now. That's super, actually. But...that doesn't make it okay for you to use the maps still. You don't have permission from the author to use them, for one. And I know how impossible it is to get permission from a Japanese author, but the point still stands.

Sure, the author doesn't have copyright on the maps or anything, but that's no justification to reuse them. Just because you CAN use them TECHNICALLY doesn't mean people will respect you for your decision to use them.

And second, it's just straight up lazy to reuse someone elses shit. It's your mod. Make it your own! Honestly, it's not that hard to make a few simple maps. Put the effort in.

 

I have no idea what "disonant" means, and you are the only person to complain about it. Tough tiddles.

Oh yeah I forgot to bring this up in my review post.
The music isn't the best.

 

The Void Ending serves the purpose of representing what I call "aspects of religion". It may be annoying in a game but it serves a philosophical purpose that is important. It stays.

Alright so here's the thing
I didn't even play this mod but
No matter how philosophical or whatever that is
It's still bullshit
It's going to annoy the player, and unless the game is designed around something like this, it's just an annoying moment that's going to piss a lot of people off. Especially since most people might not understand this "philosophical purpose". Not to mention the fact that whoever's playing is going to be pissed because they just ran into some bullshit that was a waste of their time; they probably won't care about whatever message this game is telling you.

 

I get a feeling that your mod's scope is a bit too large for you, especially if it means you (the developer) have to resort to using other people's content in order to save time.

Like many others here, myself included, you're a one man modding team. It's unlikely that anyone else can help you (but that does not mean they won't help you! Even if they can't contribute to the mod itself, I bet you they've got some killer advice). Another thing, Time is sparse, especially since you have school and other important things to worry about (I assume so anyway). While I was working on my own mod, I started losing motivation to continue the project, because I found that I didn't have enough time for the scope of the mod, which at the time was similar to the scope of Heaven and Hell. As a result, my mod's been on a loooong hiatus.

If you plan on starting any other projects, it may be a worthwhile idea to make a short level pack that makes use of original cave story graphics, and focuses more on gameplay rather than story. It will be easier to do, and a lot more fun for you. If you plan to have some kind of story, it will be easier to make a story in the same universe as Cave Story, as there's already concrete rules and themes in play. Making a good story can take a while, and can potentially lead to some slip ups if underdeveloped in the middle of mod development (although it's entirely possible that you've already got the story, and are just developing the game itself. Just something to think about).

Scope should be reflective not of what we hope to achieve, but rather what we know for certain what we can do. If you're good at art, focus on art. If you're good at music, focus on that too, and so on. I'd personally love to see another Cave Story mod with a focus on levels and gameplay.

I hope this helps in someway, shape, or form.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dissonant

Also I'm gonna be the second person to complain about it; your song edits sound bad.

And to add on the plagiarism thing...okay, you're crediting the author now. That's super, actually. But...that doesn't make it okay for you to use the maps still. You don't have permission from the author to use them, for one. And I know how impossible it is to get permission from a Japanese author, but the point still stands.

Sure, the author doesn't have copyright on the maps or anything, but that's no justification to reuse them. Just because you CAN use them TECHNICALLY doesn't mean people will respect you for your decision to use them.

And second, it's just straight up lazy to reuse someone elses shit. It's your mod. Make it your own! Honestly, it's not that hard to make a few simple maps. Put the effort in.

Alright, for future reference, I will not do that. I was unaware that it is deemed disrespectable. With the current state of the DU, it's questionable if the modder even still has an internet presence, but I will keep this in mind.

Thank you for your understanding.


And honestly, I've had plenty of people listen to all of my edits in person. Minus the Balcony one, which I myself don't like, I've had numerous people like them. I even showed my friend (who is one of the most musically talented people I know) and he greatly enjoyed it. I am finding it hard to believe that the only people who dislike my music are here on the forums.

In any case, I am open to suggestions, as long as you can validate your suggestions and give ways to fix them.

I get a feeling that your mod's scope is a bit too large for you, especially if it means you (the developer) have to resort to using other people's content in order to save time.

Like many others here, myself included, you're a one man modding team. It's unlikely that anyone else can help you (but that does not mean they won't help you! Even if they can't contribute to the mod itself, I bet you they've got some killer advice). Another thing, Time is sparse, especially since you have school and other important things to worry about (I assume so anyway). While I was working on my own mod, I started losing motivation to continue the project, because I found that I didn't have enough time for the scope of the mod, which at the time was similar to the scope of Heaven and Hell. As a result, my mod's been on a loooong hiatus.

If you plan on starting any other projects, it may be a worthwhile idea to make a short level pack that makes use of original cave story graphics, and focuses more on gameplay rather than story. It will be easier to do, and a lot more fun for you. If you plan to have some kind of story, it will be easier to make a story in the same universe as Cave Story, as there's already concrete rules and themes in play. Making a good story can take a while, and can potentially lead to some slip ups if underdeveloped in the middle of mod development (although it's entirely possible that you've already got the story, and are just developing the game itself. Just something to think about).

Scope should be reflective not of what we hope to achieve, but rather what we know for certain what we can do. If you're good at art, focus on art. If you're good at music, focus on that too, and so on. I'd personally love to see another Cave Story mod with a focus on levels and gameplay.

I hope this helps in someway, shape, or form.

Thank you for advice, but honestly, you've misjudged me completely. In my eyes, this game is merely a medium for the story, since it plays out better AS a game. I am terrible at writing stories, so why not orchestrate one? That's what this mod is about. At the very least, I will finish the story, but this is my first full scale mod. It will have some kinks. I hope that you'll be able to see this not as a fantastic and wonderful GAME, but rather a well written and amazing story. If I scrapped this game, I would feel TERRRIBLE. I want this story to have a better ending than so many others. I WILL finish this game, and perhaps I will one day be able to look back on it and see my improvement over the course of its development. I can already say that this next iteration I will be releasing sometime soon (with summer coming) will be far better, and by the end, I hope it can show my improvement, so I can work on my next great story. This time, yes, in the Cave Story universe.

I will finish this mod. This story WILL have an ending. But I've already decided to cut the third branch of the storyline.


EDIT:

Also, yes, a lot of characters are NAMED after third-party characters. It's because I'm a huge fanboy who can't help but reference favorite works of mine. It shouldn't detract from the experience, however.

EDIT2:

Still watching the livestream (had to pause it to visit a neighbor in the hospital). Everytime I hear the world "stolen" I feel absolutely terrible. I really apologize for incorrectly crediting that. I'm probably beating myself up more than is necessary but I try and hold integrity over everything else.

In all honesty I feel bad enough about it to potentially scrap the game because of it. Although it was an accident, it still pains me to think that I've wronged someone.

EDIT3:

That "He's A Pirate" ORG is one of my earlier ones, I'm working on a new version now that isn't a total piece of crap.

Additionally, I know you're about to complain about having to leave and come back to the mining room, but a weird flag problem required me to have the player leave and then come back. Also, further issues with the Doctor sprites have arisen in this next update that make no sense (like his "standing" ANP being switched with his "floating" ANP and sprites being mixed up and not facing the right way despite numerous attempts to correct them with TSC and deleting/replacing sprites).

EDIT4:

Uh... I just checked, and the background for the Hall of Immortals is set to Parallax Scroll (clouds). I'm not sure why it's not working. I'm going to try fixing it now but I'm not sure what the problem is...

 

In all honesty I feel bad enough about it to potentially scrap the game because of it. Although it was an accident, it still pains me to think that I've wronged someone.

You don't have to scrap the entire mod just because of the offending maps. All that needs to be done to right the wrong is the redesigning of those maps. Make them yours, not Iron Bird Story's. Sure, it may not be the most pleasant experience to go back to a part of the mod that you had thought up until now was finished and do most of it from scratch, but the mod'll be better for it once you do so.

 

You don't have to scrap the entire mod just because of the offending maps. All that needs to be done to right the wrong is the redesigning of those maps. Make them yours, not Iron Bird Story's. Sure, it may not be the most pleasant experience to go back to a part of the mod that you had thought up until now was finished and do most of it from scratch, but the mod'll be better for it once you do so.

Is it alright if for now I leave it and just finish the story before going back? I'd very much like to finish the story, but if it's not okay, I will spend the first week of Summer I have reworking the maps.

EDIT:

I see one of the issues you had though. When in the read me I said "Sprites, maps, and art inspiration" I was saying "Credit for sprites and maps, Inspiration FOR ART." Not "inspiration for sprites, maps, and art." I see where the syntax was misleading. That is completely my fault.

 

Is it alright if for now I leave it and just finish the story before going back? I'd very much like to finish the story, but if it's not okay, I will spend the first week of Summer I have reworking the maps.

I guess it's okay if you do redesign them later but please get rid of the critter thing it's not funny.

 

I made mention of an old mod in which someone literally placed a "I stole your tilesets, sorry" in a sign when you first see the borrowed content. Placing a message like that (with promise of reworking in the future) would be enough.

As for the story - there are multiple issues I've seen with it so far. I'll go into detail in a PM, though.

 

Is it alright if for now I leave it and just finish the story before going back? I'd very much like to finish the story, but if it's not okay, I will spend the first week of Summer I have reworking the maps.

Honestly, the way I see it, it'll be better if you get to it sooner rather than later. It'll be a weight off your shoulders once you finish reworking the maps, and once they're finished you can direct all of your focus on finishing up the story.

 

Honestly, the way I see it, it'll be better if you get to it sooner rather than later. It'll be a weight off your shoulders once you finish reworking the maps, and once they're finished you can direct all of your focus on finishing up the story.

Next demo release. For sure.

EDIT:

On second thought, this mistake I have made and the fact that the mod is generally difficult (WTF is with these sprites, man? They keep not ANP'ing correctly!) I am, unfortunately, scrapping this.

For now.

One day, when my time is more open, I will revisit this mod, but because of this mistake I have made in crediting, I feel like it's my responsibility to shut it down. I feel absolutely terrible for the misunderstanding over the credits, and it will not happen again. I will begin work on a new, in-Universe project immediately.