CSTSF Modding Competition 2017 - Submission and Discussion Thread

I may come up with something. Most of my modding 'attempts' have been me screwing around with just the basic stuff. Expect the (un)expected.

 

I took some time to muse over this before deciding to say anything in formal writing.

I first must strongly disagree with this contest, Because it's a "no ASM" contest.

It's no secret that I along with most other modders use at least some amount of ASM in out mods; but to completely throw it out basically is asking all the veteran modders to sit this contest out; we've been around so long that using these ASM hacks are second nature to us and are a part of the engine itself and we cannot use it without these enhancements.

It's how we build the mods and you greatly hinder our ability to perform without them. Why should be be punished for putting all our skills into one of the hardest aspects of modding? You want a "equal" playing field but by doing this you're creating just the opposite. I wouldn't mind this idea nearly as much if you presented this as a side contest and our community was at least 5 times as large as it currently is. It would justify having a "kiddie pool" contest to encourage new modders to compete against each other because they are actually likely to get 3rd second or even first place. But this is only a pipe dream because nobody doesn't know ASM anymore that still mods It's not in the current meta anymore, After Carrotlord, my own and Thomas Xin's Guides; CS ASM is easier to get into than ever; and if you want to complain that you're at a disadvantage it's your own fault.

Doors, Dunc, Nox, Thomas Xin, TPcool, TLink, Myself, Kenni, GiR, Yinga, and others all use ASM because we've been around long enough and cared enough to get this shit down so that the engine is more manipulable and we have a more open canvas.

You want people to use existing NPC's; but I as well as others (I'd assume anyway) don't even KNOW what the vanilla enemies are anymore let alone how to use them in creative ways anymore. (Such as EO's gif of the curtains pulling back)

What were the <ANP's to the Curly NPC again? I forgot because I only use my better coded more flexible one now that's a lot easier to customize for each mod's needs...



TL;DR Nice try kid, but you gotta get up to our level if you wanna play with the big boys, not change the rules to drag us down. It sucks that "so you came" didn't score well because of a few small but important mistakes were made, even though the playtime was more than double of most entries, and had new art and decent scripting/concepts. But you've gotta realize your faults and stop pointing fingers at others claiming that ASM is broken and unfair to others that are too lazy to learn it. This isn't 2009; the meta has evolved.

 

please don't drag me into this
i don't have a problem with having a theme that's less asm focused i just think that zxin is too strict about it
plus you're sounding EXTREMELY elitist in general here

 

let's all buckle down here and get a fan going and realize that some people can get too excited for shit that shouldn't be happening yet.
Wait until elementary school is released in June, then start setting up the tents and lights, it's too early for the circus to begin. Leave it up to the bigwigs.

 

It's how we build the mods and you greatly hinder our ability to perform without them.

I as well as others (I'd assume anyway) don't even KNOW what the vanilla enemies are anymore let alone how to use them in creative ways anymore. (Such as EO's gif of the curtains pulling back)

Nice try kid, but you gotta get up to our level if you wanna play with the big boys, not change the rules to drag us down.

I'm just here to say that this post was one of the most unintentionally hilarious things that I've read on the forums in a long, long time.

 

I took some time to muse over this before deciding to say anything in formal writing.

I first must strongly disagree with this contest, Because it's a "no ASM" contest.

It's no secret that I along with most other modders use at least some amount of ASM in out mods; but to completely throw it out basically is asking all the veteran modders to sit this contest out; we've been around so long that using these ASM hacks are second nature to us and are a part of the engine itself and we cannot use it without these enhancements.

It's how we build the mods and you greatly hinder our ability to perform without them. Why should be be punished for putting all our skills into one of the hardest aspects of modding? You want a "equal" playing field but by doing this you're creating just the opposite. I wouldn't mind this idea nearly as much if you presented this as a side contest and our community was at least 5 times as large as it currently is. It would justify having a "kiddie pool" contest to encourage new modders to compete against each other because they are actually likely to get 3rd second or even first place. But this is only a pipe dream because nobody doesn't know ASM anymore that still mods It's not in the current meta anymore, After Carrotlord, my own and Thomas Xin's Guides; CS ASM is easier to get into than ever; and if you want to complain that you're at a disadvantage it's your own fault.

Doors, Dunc, Nox, Thomas Xin, TPcool, TLink, Myself, Kenni, GiR, Yinga, and others all use ASM because we've been around long enough and cared enough to get this shit down so that the engine is more manipulable and we have a more open canvas.

You want people to use existing NPC's; but I as well as others (I'd assume anyway) don't even KNOW what the vanilla enemies are anymore let alone how to use them in creative ways anymore. (Such as EO's gif of the curtains pulling back)

What were the <ANP's to the Curly NPC again? I forgot because I only use my better coded more flexible one now that's a lot easier to customize for each mod's needs...



TL;DR Nice try kid, but you gotta get up to our level if you wanna play with the big boys, not change the rules to drag us down. It sucks that "so you came" didn't score well because of a few small but important mistakes were made, even though the playtime was more than double of most entries, and had new art and decent scripting/concepts. But you've gotta realize your faults and stop pointing fingers at others claiming that ASM is broken and unfair to others that are too lazy to learn it. This isn't 2009; the meta has evolved.

This "meta" talk is causing me pain on several different levels. Also, how much better are you really if you can't figure out how to creatively use the assets already provided to you?

 

This competition would've been a lot more better if minor asm changes(like just changing a simple value) are allowed, but not major hacks.
If you are angry that you can't join because major ASM is not allowed and you can't work without it, then you are probably being too dependand on it.

 

This "meta" talk is causing me pain on several different levels. Also, how much better are you really if you can't figure out how to creatively use the assets already provided to you?

It's one thing to give people a modcon to work on, starting with the vanilla exe. It's another thing altogether to PREVENT others from using a specialized technique, especially one that they spent most of their time dedicated into learning, to make a mod better.

I have to agree with BLink on this one.

 

Doors, Dunc, Nox, Thomas Xin, TPcool, TLink, Myself, Kenni, GiR, Yinga, and others

Nox, Thomas Xin, Myself, and Kenni

FTFY

I wasn't here, you didn't see anything

 

It's one thing to give people a modcon to work on, starting with the vanilla exe. It's another thing altogether to PREVENT others from using a specialized technique, especially one that they spent most of their time dedicated into learning, to make a mod better.

I have to agree with BLink on this one.

You managed to completely miss the point I was trying to make, though with it being you I'm not surprised. It isn't about being good at assembly hacking. It's about becoming so entangled in it that you forget (or never learn) the basics. That's the whole point of this theme: the basics. I'll reiterate that its limitation is a little too tight for my liking, but it's not inherently a bad theme.

 

You managed to completely miss the point I was trying to make, though with it being you I'm not surprised. It isn't about being good at assembly hacking. It's about becoming so entangled in it that you forget (or never learn) the basics. That's the whole point of this theme: the basics. I'll reiterate that its limitation is a little too tight for my liking, but it's not inherently a bad theme.

Yes, but in that case you'd ENCOURAGE other aspects (like giving extra points for better level design), not BAN the use of ASM. This is just completely ridiculous.

 

It's another thing altogether to PREVENT others from using a specialized technique, especially one that they spent most of their time dedicated into learning, to make a mod better.

Well maybe you could see this as a way to step outside your comfort zone, instead of relying on the same crutch for every mod you make. Is it anyone's fault that you haven't dedicated time to learning other skills besides ASM? Should you not take this opportunity to sharpen those other skills?

This rule wasn't made to "punish" ASM hackers but to have less of a focus on ASM hacks in the contest, which have a tendency to dominate since they're "fresh" and "new". But there's more to modding than just adding new functionality to the code.

And FYI no one's preventing you from ASM hacking. Entering this contest is not mandatory.

 

Yes I do agree that putting ALL assembly hacks off limit was a bit crazy, but then where do you draw the line with a small assembly hack?

I'm mostly referring to changing a single value, or the simple things related to maps and npcs that bl can do on it's own.
Telling people not to use things like OllyDbg, Doukutsu Assembler, BL's hacking tool or any such should be sufficient for this sort of competition, unless i'm mistaken.

 

I'm mostly referring to changing a single value, or the simple things related to maps and npcs that bl can do on it's own.
Telling people not to use things like OllyDbg, Doukutsu Assembler, BL's hacking tool or any such should be sufficient for this sort of competition, unless i'm mistaken.

But then I could pull a gamemanj and make my own assembler simply for this contest

Well maybe you could see this as a way to step outside your comfort zone, instead of relying on the same crutch for every mod you make. Is it anyone's fault that you haven't dedicated time to learning other skills besides ASM? Should you not take this opportunity to sharpen those other skills?

This rule wasn't made to "punish" ASM hackers but to have less of a focus on ASM hacks in the contest, which have a tendency to dominate since they're "fresh" and "new". But there's more to modding than just adding new functionality to the code.

And FYI no one's preventing you from ASM hacking. Entering this contest is not mandatory.

Yeah but I want to show off my ASM in contests so people actually play my mod, and if it wasn't supposed to be a punish for ASM coding, it'd be 'ASM gets you less points in this contest' rather than 'no executable changes or you're disqualified'.

 

But then I could pull a gamemanj and make my own assembler simply for this contest

Why do you think I said "things like OllyDbg, Doukutsu Assembler, BL's hacking tool or any such"

 

Why do you think I said "things like OllyDbg, Doukutsu Assembler, BL's hacking tool or any such"

That means hex editors are okay, right? Well it's possible (although extremely tedious) to write ASM in hex editors too

 

...I think you're missing the point a little here, but I suppose an easy way to do it would be to just let people only edit the exe with the three cs editors (CE, BL and SW if you're courageous enough) and Resource Hacker. But ban BL's hacking tool and hex patcher..

 

...I think you're missing the point a little here, but I suppose an easy way to do it would be to just let people only edit the exe with the three cs editors (CE, BL and SW if you're courageous enough) and Resource Hacker. But ban BL's hacking tool and hex patcher..

How about you're allowed to ASM, but any ASM hacks must be your own and made after the start of the contest.
This is more fair IMO