Zelda rpg mod?

Jun 8, 2007 at 10:21 AM
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Hello, long time fan of this ZeldaC hack coming up and I can't wait. I was just wondering what you guys would think about turning Zelda:alttp into an adventure game with full rpg elements? I think Zelda:alttp(and ZeldaC3 for that matter) is fine / going to be fine the way they are, but I thought it would be really cool if you gave a game this huge some true rpg elements(gaining levels, random damage, maybe some more swords and armor?). Would something like this be pretty much impossible to do, or could ASM hackers go into the rom and mess around with the game code with less trouble than one might think? I think something like this would be awesome, but that's because I'm a rpg/adventure nut and I like to gain levels when I kill the same guys over and over again...

Regardless, thanks for the hack!
 
Jun 8, 2007 at 2:05 PM
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After seeing the screenshots that GameMakr has put up on his page, I don't doubt his hacking/editing skill in the least, especially after experiencing what he did with Zelda I in his Zelda: Outlands Hack. Outlands was really a completely different game using Zelda gameplay, but many new types of puzzles were well thought out, implemented, and designed around the original game mechanics.

Thing is, he's already done with some large portions of the game and from what I gather he's been quite busy with family life and such, so when he gets the time to work on it, I don't know if he'd be willing to go back to the drawing board as far the gameplay is concerned. But who knows, he might be interested in trying this on a brand new project if he thought it was possible.

Though if you like action-adventure games that are similar in gameplay, yet an rpg in terms of equipment, levels and stats, you should definitely try out the Ys series sometime. The Ys series is more or less an underdog to Zelda, but in many ways I prefer it to Zelda, especially in the boss battles.

There is another forum category that exists on MiraiGamer forums that deals with a project called XyZ, which stands for Xak, Ys, Zelda and other action-adventure-rpgs. You might check out that site sometime if you enjoy this type of genre, though it is still in development.

Edit: Actually, I just found this as of last night by random chance:
Zelda Parallel Worlds
So far it's a pretty amazing rehash of Zelda III, similar to what they did with Super Metroid Redesign. The overworld is completely different, new sprites were used, new dungeons and dungeon designs and interesting new architecture types. There are some issues here and there and the dialogue could use some improvement in places, but it is a very much a solid brand new Zelda III in many respects. They spent a great deal of time on it and it shows.

Consequently, they credit GameMakr for inspiration on the project. : )

-SkyeWelse
 
Jun 10, 2007 at 5:29 PM
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Hi, all! I like the RPG elements ideas -- after all, Zelda 2 is one of my favorite games in the series. The ideas below sound great, but until I talk to my official ASM hacker, and until he's finished bigger procedures, I can't say if these things will be possible. At least they aren't ruled out by making any of my current work obsolete. (I have no plans to make a second Zelda 3 hack -- the overworld is just too time-consuming.)

I would especially like to see Link gaining levels again, so that you get more powerful even without finding new equipment. The trick here would be not just to implement it, but to display it as well. We would need numbers "popping out of" enemies to display points earned, and we would need a display counter to track progress. It would be a huge project unto itself, but if done correctly, it would be incredible.

Random damage would be a lot harder since losing hearts can't vary that much. What if a soldier hit you once and took two whole hearts, only to hit you again and take half a heart? It wouldn't come across as believable, unless we represented Link's life a new way. Zelda 3 itself isn't very random -- the enemies are always in the same places... But you never know what you'll find when you cut the grass!

As for new swords and armor, someone submitted an idea that would give Link a long, two-handed sword, equipable alongside other items so that it would take up an item slot. When equipped, both the B button and Y button would swing the blade. We're nowhere near prepared to make new items, but no question, this is a "dream item"...

I changed the tunic colors, but not drastically -- their shades are better and the oddly-colored hats now match the tunics themselves. Some people think Link should have a white and/or black tunic available. I hesitate on these ideas because, no matter where you go in the game, you *have* to look at Link. If you personally don't want to see Link white all the time, or black seems too evil, nothing could be done about it. I think I'll stick with his traditional colors, for these reasons. :)

I haven't played Zelda 3 - Parallel Worlds for a few reasons. First, I'm afraid I'll see some of my own ideas and second-guess whether I should still use them. Second, the inconveniences imposed are possibly worse than ZeldaC ~ Outlands! I don't want to travel to some far-off cave for a key before I can unlock a certain dungeon door! I'm hoping they improve the game before I sit down with it. Third, all my alone-time goes into Zelda3C. It's so rare to have the computer uninterrupted that I find myself waiting a whole week in "agony" for my next chance to make progress. Therefore my only gaming time is on my DS during lunch breaks, lol...

Well, sorry this forum isn't very active. ("Echo", Reshaper? lol) Some day it may be flooded with gameplay questions ("Why can't I find the flippers yet?") but for now, it's pretty slow. Maybe I'll link to this place after every diary entry and get people responding here, instead of just emails directly to me. ::writes this idea down:: ‘Til next time!
 
Jun 10, 2007 at 6:10 PM
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Thanks for the update GameMakr! I'm still just as excited as ever about one day getting the chance to play Calatia and it's great to hear that you are still working on it when you have time. I certainly know how time constraints and lack of time can be. Time is a luxury afterall. : )

Good luck with implementing the rpg elements to it if you all can find a way. Sounds like it would be a difficult thing to do. You might look into the Ys series games to see how they approach it to get some ideas about how to put those rpg statistic in the game since Falcom has been doing it successfully in action-rpg format for many, many years now.

This forum is still small and it isn't frequented quite as much as some of the other hosted forums but I've seen a lot of recent interest popping up as of late.

-SkyeWelse
 
Jun 25, 2007 at 12:05 AM
coolbeans
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Just tried playing Parallel Worlds. Ugh. It's impressive, but the dialogue is just plain irritating. The grammar is awful. This seems to be one thing that so many RPG hacks have in common and it really irks me. It amazes me that people will put so much time and effort into graphics and coding, only to spend so little on game dialogue. PLEASE Gamemakr, have someone grammar and spell check everything before you release your hack. I doubt you need me to tell you this, but I had to put this out there just in case.


Also, Hi! Long time reader, first time poster! Can't wait to play this thing, keep up the great work! It really is appreciated.
 
Jul 1, 2007 at 2:14 AM
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Hey Gamemakr24. I've been following your Zelda3C project since around its conception, I've even emailed encouragement once or twice. I'm glad to see you're still pushing ahead and continuing your efforts. Zelda3C is shaping up to be an incredible hack due to the amount of care and attention you're giving it. It may be taking a long time, but the end result should certainly be worth it.

Keep at it, and good luck!
 
Jul 1, 2007 at 5:37 AM
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The Zelda3C website has had an important spot in my bookmarks for several years. A Link to the Past was one of my favourite games growing up, and when I saw your screenshots and read what you were doing I knew that this was something I wanted to play. I check for an update in your diary every few weeks or so, and love reading the things that you put in there, seeing how you're expanding the world, and creating a new adventure. I just wanted to thank you for the years of hard work that you've put into this hack, and the effort you're going to to create a new Zelda experience for all of us fans.
 
Jul 3, 2007 at 10:27 AM
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Kellus said:
I just wanted to thank you for the years of hard work that you've put into this hack, and the effort you're going to to create a new Zelda experience for all of us fans.

Amen to that! I'm buying GameMakr a brand new SNES cartridge dumper when the game is finished. The devotion to Zelda 3C alone is amazing... What are you, a SQL programmer? :p

Really cool to see someone do this, it's making my inner child cry with the good ol' fashion joy I had back when a LttP first came out. Can't thank the team enough for the all hard work for us fans!
 
Jul 5, 2007 at 2:03 PM
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I'm also a long time reader and first time poster here.

I have been following zelda3c way before I started working on parallel worlds (that's like 4-5 years ago), Gamemakr24 may have remembered some of the conversations we had over icq and the few emails on zeldac quite a few years ago.

Anyway it's nice to see zelda3c is still alive and kicking, even I would like to see it completed. If there's any way I could help, feel free to ask, there's tons of zelda3 knowledge in my head right now which is unused now that parallel worlds is completed :)
 
Jul 8, 2007 at 4:59 PM
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Going back to the RPG for Zelda 3C (hey, I'm a poet and I... well... yeah.... anyways), it would be interesting to see the enemies give Link experience for killing them. But, how would this be able to implemented? And what I mean by that is, currently Link takes damage based on the enemy and the clothes he's wearing. So, would gaining experience factor in to the amount of damage he takes too? 'Cause the damage, in its current form, is broken down by half-heart increments. Still would be kind of neat if it could work.

On a side note, Euclid, I've just started playing your game (never heard of it 'til I found it in this very thread, actually). I think you've done a very nice job on the game. The graphic changes that you've made look good, and the game is VERY difficult. I've made it into the first "palace", the one in the water (don't want to say too much and ruin it for other people). Anyways, nice job. :)
 
Jul 9, 2007 at 12:18 AM
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Let's see...

I promise to be careful with spelling and grammar -- I have a knack for finding even the slightest mistakes in text.

I am officially looking forward to a SNES cartridge dumper from ahuman... :)

I'm not a SQL programmer, though I write programs in VBA that make use of a SQL database...

Of course I remember you, Euclid, though I wish I could think of some Zelda 3 questions off the top of my head... (I'll take you up on that sometime) :)

The life meter is actually more than just half-heart increments. If you let a bee sting you over and over, you'll notice that it takes a few stings to make half a heart vanish. Another example is when you're wearing the red tunic and you appear not to take damage from an enemy. I think if we did implement an experience system, it would override the tunics, but even then, there isn't much variation between weak defense and strong defense. (Unless we grant a heart container for each level raised... Just thinking out loud.)

In reply to all the thanks -- you're very welcome! I love creating new adventures, always have; it's definitely my pleasure. Wish I had more news to share, but right now I'm finishing off the forest...
 
Jul 9, 2007 at 12:48 AM
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It's true. Everytime I email Gamemakr, he's always quick to point out when I make a mistake with my grammar or spelling. I try to return the favor to him, and we usually have a good laugh over it. Or maybe we're both just a li'l nuts... I dunno. :)

Mr. GM, it seems you're pretty sold on this experience idea. I'm surprised (pleasantly, of course). I'd kind of hate to see the tunics go away, though, but I guess you can't have everything.
 
Jul 9, 2007 at 3:32 AM
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Actually, I love the tunics. They're a Zelda tradition; I'm always unhappy when the latest Zelda doesn't include them. But who knows, a really complex ASM hack someday could instead give the tunics new abilities, kind of like OoT. (Yes, it's just a pipe dream.)

What we're talking about in this thread is one of the most involved, difficult concepts we could ever try to implement. If it ever becomes reality, I'll probably give advanced enemies more attack power which would be devastating until Link has raised enough levels killing weaker enemies.

This kind of system could throw the game off-balance by introducing killer enemies too soon. I would forfeit the fun if a molblin could kill you in two hits while requiring several hits for its own defeat. I think I would like to mirror the Zelda 2 system, if an experience system is ever implemented. It's great to see enemies require less and less hits as the character improves.

It's all imagination at this stage, but who knows what lies behind the doors of ASM? I've seen some things in my hack and others' hacks that prove anything's possible.
 
Jul 20, 2007 at 5:52 AM
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im not sure rpg elements would be a good idea (at least not in this hack). ya i like the tunics idea, but the damage and experience would be too big a step away from the original. but it may not be a bad idea for other hacks which arent as far as gamemakr in the development process.

but who knows. i could be wrong.
 
Jul 22, 2007 at 8:27 PM
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I'll only implement a leveling system if (a) it's feasable and (b) it doesn't disrupt or ruin the itinerary nor the challenge curve. I like being able to hide heart pieces everywhere, what with all the nooks and crannies I'm creating; to gain life via points could undo the collection aspect, unless some other collectable could fill the gap. Further, the tunics are too important to Zelda 3 to thoughtlessly toss them aside. As for challenge, I don't want creatures becoming too hard or too easy during the course of gameplay that you're either slaughtering or getting slaughtered. Maybe the best method is to "leave 'well enough' alone" but it's fun to think about & play around with.
 
Aug 20, 2007 at 11:14 AM
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Hey again!

I'm glad everyone has given this some thought, especially GameMakr. If adding some type of rpg system to Zelda ever did come to light, I would imagine it would be something of an(optional) game patch, so it wouldn't necessarily interfere with the more "classic" Zelda game play that some players might want from Zelda3C. Of course with all the work that would be required to add some quality rpg spice, I would suppose you would want to force players to enjoy the fruits the of your labor and make it an optional patch :p

Anyway, I've given it some thought. And sometimes(and rightfully so) it feels like trying to take Zelda 3 for the SNES and make it into a full blooded RPG seems really silly, if not downright hard. Just FYI. But at any rate, this is what I've been thinking....

I'm not sure how hard it would be to change this, but Link, like in almost every Zelda game, gets a total of 20 hearts. Heart Pieces are found and Heart Containers are rewards after beating certain bosses. Now, if we couldn't change the life meter into numbers, then we'd be stuck using hearts and I'd probably go with the "heart per level" idea that GameMakr mentioned. This way it would be easiest to implement and I don't think there would have to be a lot that would change, if anything(Only that you'd probably never find heart containers). So eventually after thwacking enough red knights and getting your 5-6th crystal, you'd have 20 hearts and that'd be that. Personally, I think that's kind of a crappy idea. Fun, but I think a lot of work would be required for little payoff.
What would be really nice is if we could change the life meter into a number. I figure Link has something like a byte(255) for health? If every heart is broken down into 8, then 8*20=160, no? So in theory, by the end of regular ol' Zelda 3, Link has 160 health points, and is taking minimal damage from most enemies with the red tunic. I figure for an rpg hack, a byte is enough health to work with (255 max hp?), but it would be nice to have a 16bit number to work with for Link's health. I guess if someone is going to do a heavy ASM modification, making a 16bit integer won't be too hard :). But I would imagine, just off the top of my head, keeping things similar to the environment that Zelda 3 has, if you made an rpg mod, you'd start Link off with 24HP, just like 3 hearts. And everytime you grabbed a heart container, you'd get 8 more HP, in addition to levels you'd normally gain.

What would be really nice (again) is if we could find a numeric hp value to everything(Link, monsters, green knights/blue knights/etc) and find a way to randomize it a little. Let's say, for sake of argument, Link with his first sword(lv1) does a flat 8 points of damage. Now you go onto a screen, and there is a green knight. If a green knight takes 2 hits to squash, we can surmise he's got a flat 16 points of health. It would be nice to have some type of code randomize monster's health when you roll onto a screen, so a green knight could have anywhere between 16-40 points of health, blue knight 24-56, red 60+. Maybe somehow have Link's current level factor into the randomization of monster's HP?

Well, that's my idea for right now. It's terribly late and I've got to get some sleep. Hopefully I'm not too incoherent to make any sense here, so I hope this helps get some ideas rolling. All I figure right now is that Zelda itself is pretty different from something like Y's. Or rather what I mean is that the game engine is made to work around collecting and adventuring, not necessarily constant battling. So if someone wanted to make a good rpg mod for it, you'd have to pay attention to that fact and somehow properly address it.
I'll try and add more ideas about this later...
 
Sep 19, 2007 at 2:55 AM
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Been looking forward to this for a long time. Looking more sweet as it goes, keep going man. As for the true rpg change to it, I wouldn't be opposed, even if the zelda 3 forumula is my favourite.

Now the main thing I wanted to post, is to learn from what Parallel Worlds did wrong, even if you haven't played it. It's a base concept that it just is not fun repeatedly doing things just for the sake of difficulty, tonnes of backtracking, enemies taking many many hits. And to a lesser extent that wasn't really a problem with it, the point of huge amounts of trial and error required to find things (this is more of an early zelda personal thing). Those things just aren't fun, it makes the game tedious and fucking annoying. Please make making the game fun your first priority. Challenge is fun, but uninspired challenge is terrible, I trust in your ability to get the balance right. Just my thoughts.

Keep up the good work man.
 
Sep 19, 2007 at 2:10 PM
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and rewards for working hard :D
 
Sep 20, 2007 at 5:40 PM
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I'll let you know that GameMakr24 and I have had some serious discussions on this very topic (how challenge isn't synonymous with fun, although the right amount and type of challenge can be fun). And we agree that having a good, enjoyable, playable experience comes first; the "challenge" aspect of Zelda3C will not be one of tedious frustration and/or the "cheap" sort.

Challenge should not be achieved by artificial means, such as giving monsters ridiculous HP and bump damages, or by requiring very repetitive, boring, unnecessary backtracking through room after room filled with such enemies. And although it's impossible to remove the temptation for the player to use savestates, there shouldn't be any point where you feel "forced" to use them.

In other words, while still being more difficult than Zelda 3, this game will not be for experts only, nor will it expect you to know and exploit glitches, or anything of that sort. The game will still, however, provide fresh challenges for those who have mastered the original Zelda 3--via new and thoughtful, albeit still "Zelda-style" puzzles that will leave you scratching your head for a while.

And in the end, I believe that's what most people want: A new Zelda game with heightened challenge--but that is still enjoyable, fair, and fun for anybody who picks it up. So... have I put your mind at ease?
 
Sep 21, 2007 at 5:17 AM
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Very much so, thankyou.

I shall continue to look forward to this. :)
 
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