Ban Appeals

Hear me out please

Ban evasion. Seriously, has this ever not been a problem? But with decent reason.
So, you've just been permabanned. But you want back. What do you do? Well, the rules don't say anything about being able to ask for your privileges back, so the only obvious choice is to make an alternate account. But, if you'd paid attention to the bans thread, you'd have noticed that one member, windsofwinds, was unbanned from a permaban for simply asking for a second chance. If it had been in the rules that you could make an appeal to have your ban repealed, you wouldn't have made an alt, you'd simply have sent an email (or filled out a form?) to the modmins, and had a chance to get your account back. Wouldn't that be a much better way of doing it?

So, why isn't there an official stance on ban appeals? If a banned member hasn't made an alternate account and obeyed the rules regarding banning, and improved beyond the point that they'd stay within the rules, why shouldn't they be allowed to ask for their privileges back? I can think of at least one member that would seriously appreciate this.

So there'd obviously be criteria- such as how obviously they've improved since their banning, how well they've acted during their banning, the like. So... how do you guys feel about it?

 

Well, I am shocked, Dunc with a good idea for once.


I fully support this 100%. Even if this forum is smaller than others all civilized forums have a ban appeal system.

 

Well, I am shocked, Dunc with a good idea for once.

Are you fucking kidding me
What has he done to deserve this label
I mean come on he's gotta be the most mature 13-year-old on this forum
And what bad ideas are you actually basing this off of

 

[ignorepotentialargument]I think it's a pretty good idea, Dunc.[/ignorepotentialargument]

 

Spoiler

What's your problem with Dunc, Meta? Sometimes he can be a bit harsh towards some new members, but other than that, he's barely rough around the edges. If an argument breaks out, count me on Doors' side.

I am in support of this proposal, and think it is worth giving a try.

 

Spoiler

Actually, never mind. Don't feel like waging war with half the forums.

The ban system here has always been very flawed so an appeal system would help out greatly.

 

yeah okay whatever

 

Well the idea to me is that if the person in question has changed enough that it actually occurs to make an appeal, then they have generally earned the right to be unbanned, no? How else would the banned member in question find the right moment to appeal and not bring the same old vices to the table. To me it feels like moving this system into an "official" capacity (rule-wise) would ensure that it would be abused. The problem is that the banned member in question usually lacks understanding of their faults, especially when 90% of it boils down to general immaturity (13-year-olds and the like).

Alt accounts are dishonest and a very good indication that said member learnt nothing from their ban. A ban appeal on the other hand is honest so long as the end user decided upon it themselves.

Maybe get rid of the notion of permanent bans (with the exception of spambots and alts) and replace them with long temp bans instead. Say maybe... 6 months?

 

The idea of getting rid of permanent bans would be an interesting one. That would mean, then, that current permabans that have lasted longer than six months will be lifted? Six month bans have worked to improve a member greatly in the past- look at Shane, for instance. Also, if we were to dispose of permabans, an increase in ban length for each alt a member makes would likely be the punishment, I presume?
Your reasons as for why ban appeals shouldn't be in the rules make sense to me. While in practice that didn't work so well (as seen in the return of windy), the ideas are good, and more likely than not that one experience was an abnormality rather than a regular occurrence.
Ridding of permabans would likely be a good compromise between the current system of permabans, you getting back if you ask and not any other way, and having a systematic ban appeals system. 6 months would likely be long enough, as we've seen serious improvement over a ban of six months (Shane). Of course, in extreme cases, the staff should obviously have the power to dish out longer bans (likely after discussing with the other staff members) since in some cases 6 months would simply not be long enough.

 

I think Permanent Bans are still necessary in some cases...

Like, maybe if someone shows no sign of improvement after a year's worth spent banned(two six-month bans, for example), they should be permabanned. Then if, a while later, they show a legitimate 180 turn and ask for appeal, they could be unbanned.

And although I don't think this would/should happen, I think a universal unbanning of all non-spambot/alt members would be hilarious and awesome to see. Most of them would remain inactive, but...could you imagine an army of trolls and innocent idiots unleashed on the forums? That would be fun. ;3

 

Well I can't see this being a viable alternative:

Member: Will you unban me now?
Me: No.
Member: What about now?
Me: Uhh, how is now different from five minutes ago or the time before that?
Member: I'm a changed man, really.
Me: Riiiiight.
Member: So am I to be unbanned?
Me: Of course not.
Member: Now?
Me: No.
Member: How about now?
Me: No.
Member: Can I post yet?
Me: Of course not, why would y.. No.
Member: Now?
Me: No.
Member: Now?
Me: No.
Member: Now?
Me: NO!
Member: Now?
Me: For the love of Kanpachi.. No!
Member: Just checking back to see if you've changed your mind about my...
Me: *ip ban*

 

Yeah, I know...

Because you people didn't have enough work already >_<

 

We have an appeal service. Just leave a comment there if you feel you've been banned unfairly, and the moderation team will know everything they need to.
Or, banned members can drop by IRC, so that people can experience their wonderful personality in real time. Complaining about your ban on IRC is 100% effective*.

Seriously though, it's not like the mods hand out bans lightly. People get six-month bans because they're not going to improve in the near future. Personally, I think that anyone who comes back after being banned for six months has an unhealthy obsession, since most people would forget about some forum they made a few shitty posts on six months ago.

A formal appeal system would just get abused, unfortunately. It could only work if you had to be banned for at least a month before you could submit an appeal. Furthermore, I can't remember a single case of someone coming back to the forums as a better person after a long ban. I know windsofwinds is hilarious and Dunc is in love with him, but he obviously hasn't changed.

*100% effective at keeping or extending your ban.

 

The idea of getting rid of permanent bans would be an interesting one. That would mean, then, that current permabans that have lasted longer than six months will be lifted? Six month bans have worked to improve a member greatly in the past- look at Shane, for instance. Also, if we were to dispose of permabans, an increase in ban length for each alt a member makes would likely be the punishment, I presume?
Your reasons as for why ban appeals shouldn't be in the rules make sense to me. While in practice that didn't work so well (as seen in the return of windy), the ideas are good, and more likely than not that one experience was an abnormality rather than a regular occurrence.
Ridding of permabans would likely be a good compromise between the current system of permabans, you getting back if you ask and not any other way, and having a systematic ban appeals system. 6 months would likely be long enough, as we've seen serious improvement over a ban of six months (Shane). Of course, in extreme cases, the staff should obviously have the power to dish out longer bans (likely after discussing with the other staff members) since in some cases 6 months would simply not be long enough.

In my case, though, it wasn't just the ban, but also joining about three other forums, and also being forced to disappear - some members will probably remember that I was missing between 23 June and 23 July in 2012.

 

I fail to see how ban appeals wouldn't be a self-defeating feature. To break it down relative to the current system:
-Default automatic suspensions (10 days) should not be appealable outside of genuine accidents or misunderstandings, because they're so short and purposefully designed as a time-out
-Extended temp bans should not be appealable for almost the same reason, that being that it's a set amount of time that's it's been decided that a user shouldn't be here
-Thus, it follows that permabans should not be appealable because they mean that it isn't worth having someone here anymore, full stop

How long is it appropriate to wait to see if someone of a given age is going to change? Two or three years? What suggests they would even be effective in the first place? Here's an alternate version of andy's scenario:
Member: Will you unban me now?
Me: No.
Member: I see, then let me introduce my identical twin, DarkMember720

Both dedicated ban appeals and the removal of permanent bans create more work for us when there's little reason to believe that they'll actually change anything. On top of that, it's not as though ban appeals are currently disallowed or anything, they just involve contacting a staff member off-site. Immediately making a new account is no excuse and reeks of either a lack of basic communication skills or self-entitlement.

Your reasons as for why ban appeals shouldn't be in the rules make sense to me. While in practice that didn't work so well (as seen in the return of windy), the ideas are good, and more likely than not that one experience was an abnormality rather than a regular occurrence.

There's no evidence for this at all. Users improving after suspension is clearly the exception rather than the rule. Moreover, the cases so far have been made as individual judgement calls on one's character, e.g. Noxid for Shane or me for 404notfound. Having seen that this method can work, I agree that it's worth trying something other than a ban/permanent ban in certain cases where there's supporting evidence, but not as a blanket system.

In my case at least, I feel more confident in doing this when it feels like each of my decisions has genuine weight behind it. Unfortunately, this is difficult when there are a large number of very similar users being banned for very similar behaviour.

 

Dunc, this is GENIUS!! People should at least get a second chance if they've proved themselves to be worthy enough to rejoin the community. Everyone makes mistakes, and it's even better if people learn from those mistakes and make a commitment to change and be a supportive and active member of the interweb population.

I mean come on he's gotta be the most mature 13-year-old on this forum

I agree with you, Doors. The way I see it, Dunc is blunt and honest about a lot of things here(forgive me Dunc if I'm wrong).

And although I don't think this would/should happen, I think a universal unbanning of all non-spambot/alt members would be hilarious and awesome to see. Most of them would remain inactive, but...could you imagine an army of trolls and innocent idiots unleashed on the forums? That would be fun. ;3

Wait, let me retreat to the bunker. *readies himself in bunker* Okay, OPEN THE FLOODGATES!!!

 

I'm in full support of the idea of ban appeals.

 

I think it's been covered well enough already.

Though I would like to add, I imagine other members should also be able to discuss this with admins if you are willing to vouch for them and have a good enough reason. But, I imagine it's usually justified.

...
Also, from personal experience on another forum : Bans are NOT helpful however, if the person doesn't know why they were banned (it can happen!). So, having an e-mail sent to their account with the reason would be really nice if one doesn't already.

Also, isn't there a warning system? If it takes 3 warnings before a ban, then there is plenty of time to figure out what's going on? You could talk to people in a civil manner and find out how to avoid more warnings.

I would also think warnings should probably go away or decrease at some point in time. Or upon request after a period of good behavior?

Finally, if you want to be more formal about it :

How about a vouch system. If another established member is willing to vouch for said banned member, then they could contact an admin directly. If they can convince the admin who banned said individual to give them a second chance on their behalf... Then, well they've earned the right to one "get out of jail free" card lol

But, don't test people's patience...

Maybe create a locked Ban Appeal Thread. People need to check that first before contacting an admin on another's behalf. Because if an appeal is DENIED. Then, the admins definitely don't want to be bugged by a gang of followers or something also asking for the appeal.

But, really...

@Dunc
Who or what brought this topic about?

 

Zileas/The Core.

 

Also, isn't there a warning system?

Yep. Although sometimes mods or admins jump directly to suspending or banning. According to Dunc, IP Board doesn't take the initiative to notify users that they're getting infracted. But perhaps that's been fixed, since each user sees how many warning points they have now days. And also maybe that was partially because the "Notify me if I am warned by a moderator" checkbox in the notification options is not checked by default.

If it takes 3 warnings before a ban, then there is plenty of time to figure out what's going on? You could talk to people in a civil manner and find out how to avoid more warnings.

I'm sure that's the idea, but it doesn't always work out that well.

I would also think warnings should probably go away or decrease at some point in time. Or upon request after a period of good behavior?

According to the system linked above, there are expiration times for individual offenses, so it's fairly organized at the moment.