Thoughts about red flower transformation *spoilers*

May 10, 2006 at 12:06 AM
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There must be a critical difference we're missing that seperates how the best and good ending play out... Far before Ballos; the one big difference that seperates the good and best ending is Curly. If she's dead, the hell area remains sealed. ... If she lives [best ending], hell area is open! What did Curly do? We know she's lying at the bottom of the first area so... Hmmm....

Now comparing Jenka and Ballos, I have to wonder how much strength is left in Jenka... no offense Jenka! She looks pretty old. [probably hundreds of years old by the description of a kingdom and a king...]

Assuming the Core was created when the island was first created to make it float/seal... That's a long time ago...
As you pointed out she didn't have the power to stop Balrog, let alone find her puppies. [...] uh but assuming the puppies are actually super puppies lol [since they can communicate and teleport]

I think the puppies are the ones actually controlling the island. I think they make it float and they seal Ballos... Super puppies... yes....
....
lol sorry couldn't help it;
But I still can't see the whole picture with Jenka. There must be something else. If you want to go with the simple answer; Jenka is using all of her power to seal Ballos. I find that pretty awkward. Not to underplay her abilities but I wish we would have seen her actually use her magic on screen just once ;) [besides super puppy]

We have a good idea of Ballos' and Misery's power... I kinda picture her as a Ms. Yoda in episode 4. Very powerful... oh argh lol well since I brought up the yoda, we know size doesn't matter when levitating things lol... .................. hm

Well. In the end I guess I conclude, Jenka does not have to keep an active seal on Ballos or she would have been worn out over hundreds of years. Thus when she originally faced her brother she sealed him in that special room within the island. Created the Core to keep it afloat, so no random foolish human would break the seal. And then spending her days on the island caring for the survivors/inhabitants [daughter? when was there a father?] Oh... we know of one example of Jenka's seal at work; The robot... defeating the robot in the sandzone releases the seal to get to Jenka. That seal must have been done within the last couple of years because of what the childern and Jenka say.
EDIT: I wonder if Jenka knew Quote was coming? What did the robot have to do with the seal, or perhaps Jenka lowered it?
...
" Had the red flowers not existed, the Mimigas might have vanished entirely from the island..."
We know the Core is connected to the flowers. Because the red flower power is released upon it's destruction... So Finally !! Okay the core is not just about flight... It's about the power. So without the Core, the red flower becomes an ordinary flower [I assume, since the Mimiga and everyone affected revert to their normal form];

So with that piece of information I'll assert that the Core seperates the power from Ballos. [I wonder if Jenka likes flowers] Now what about how it floats... It uses Ballos' own power to keep the island floating. I mean the Core looks like a Seed kinda.. Core, Seed... lol hmm

Now I wonder... I can't remember did the Undead Core just blow up in a puff of smoke or what happened...
"Plumes of smoke and explosions erupt from the Core as it sinks down and out. The camera fades."
Well if it didn't entirely blow up; it's possible it could have been re-created; I'm still confused if Ballos is completely gone, or if his magic is totally gone [seems like something so prevalent wouldn't just dissapear];
...
Anyways! I think that's enough for now lol
 
May 10, 2006 at 2:38 AM
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X-Calibar said:
There must be a critical difference we're missing that seperates how the best and good ending play out... Far before Ballos; the one big difference that seperates the good and best ending is Curly. If she's dead, the hell area remains sealed. ... If she lives [best ending], hell area is open! What did Curly do? We know she's lying at the bottom of the first area so... Hmmm....
"maybe" she was on her way to help you deal with the doc and stoped to rest when she got up there was a earthquake and she found her self traped in the room then the path to hell was opened by the quake she was hurt on the way because she only got her hands on the 0.8

X-Calibar said:
We have a good idea of Ballos' and Misery's power... I kinda picture her as a Ms. Yoda in episode 4. Very powerful... oh argh lol well since I brought up the yoda, we know size doesn't matter when levitating things lol... .................. hm
lol episode 4 was the only one without yoda

ok now what if the core was like a ginte spunge(sp?) sucking up ballos's power and the districton of the core just destablized the magic around the island
 
May 10, 2006 at 8:15 AM
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X-Calibar said:
Well. In the end I guess I conclude, Jenka does not have to keep an active seal on Ballos or she would have been worn out over hundreds of years.

But Ballos' magic has been running rampant ever since she sealed him, and it hasn't been worn out at all. And Misery has been serving the masters of the demon crown for hundreds of years, but her power hasn't been worn out. Why would Jenka's power be limited where Ballos' and Misery's aren't? That makes no sense to me.

And if the Core was keeping Ballos' power separate from him, why don't you see any of his magical influence until you reach the Seal Chamber?
Especially because inside the Seal Chamber he has TOTAL control, you'd think he'd have done a thing or two while you were in Hell if he had all his power back, and Jenka wasn't actively using her power to seal him.

And it's kind of hinted at that if anyone had killed Ballos, the Core and the Red Flowers would have stopped working. If the Core had been keeping ballos' power separate, why wouldn't it still have Ballos' power after he dies?
 
May 10, 2006 at 11:46 AM
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The long response:

But Ballos' magic has been running rampant ever since she sealed him, and it hasn't been worn out at all. And Misery has been serving the masters of the demon crown for hundreds of years, but her power hasn't been worn out. Why would Jenka's power be limited where Ballos' and Misery's aren't? That makes no sense to me.
"Well. In the end I guess I conclude, Jenka does not have to keep an active seal on Ballos or she would have been worn out over hundreds of years."
First off, we don't know the amount of time that has passed; we don't know when Misery was born, we don't know how long the Demon Crown has been around [there are only 4 statues; and 2 of them happen 10 years from each other, That we know]

Ballos' magic has been running rampant, but he definitely can't do much outside of the Sealed Chamber. And how can you say it hasn't worn out at all without actually having any idea of what it was like originally? I mean it said he destroyed the kingdom in a single night. But, I'm not saying it's lost it's potency...
Where does it say Misery has been serving the Demon Crown hundreds of years? And how do we know what kind of power she had before being tied to the crown?

In what you quoted, I say she doesn't have to maintain an active role in holding Ballos captive. What I mean is that she doesn't have to hold out her hands, or interrupt her daily life to keep the original seal she created; or maintains.
I don't know this for sure of course, it's just a theory/opinion... You could even hypothesize a reason why Jenka can't leave her house; [although actually I think one of the childern mention she used to be around]

So, "Why would Jenka's power be limited where Ballos' and Misery's aren't? "
Although my quote does not mean this; Jenka looks old, and I would only imagine the older she gets, little by little her power may not be quite what it once was... She's a good witch. Misery I cannot comment on since I don't know how long she's been around; and Ballos, well the day he let his magic run wild; I think his body stopped aging. He is very odd looking.
Maybe Jenka stopped her aging or slowed it as well, who knows... Their family is definitely not the typical human!

And if the Core was keeping Ballos' power separate from him, why don't you see any of his magical influence until you reach the Seal Chamber?
Especially because inside the Seal Chamber he has TOTAL control, you'd think he'd have done a thing or two while you were in Hell if he had all his power back, and Jenka wasn't actively using her power to seal him.
I see Ballos' power like a biological life of its own. Without Ballos' direct intervention; it's influence probably has changed creatures on the island, caused the red flower's power, etc.
What I'm trying to say is you do see indirectly Ballos' magical influence. Whether it was the demon crown or the red flower, and even the Black Wind that brings your weapons down to 1... Although Ballos doesn't have direct access to controlling this power; otherwise I imagine the power that destroyed the kingdom would easily wreck much worse havoc on the island... [such as causing it to crash instead of float, releasing him from his prison] I would even go as far to say that perhaps he is the reason the island started to fall. When he is reunited with his power, he could easily bring down the island to destroy his jail. [We know how easily he could survive if the Doctor was able to survive on a single crystal, or something]

"Especially because inside the Seal Chamber he has TOTAL control, you'd think he'd have done a thing or two while you were in Hell if he had all his power back, and Jenka wasn't actively using her power to seal him."
The Seal chamber seals Ballos; And by total control I assume you mean his power? Because if Ballos wants to die and then attacks you; he cannot be in total control.
As for Jenka... we never see her actively doing magic; so we can only guess. I'm just guessing that most of the time, for instance when she sleeps; [if she sleeps!] can't recall a bed in her house; that she can go on with her daily life; I mean when Balrog stomped her, if she's the key to holding Ballos, don't you think the island would have reacted somehow?

And in hell, that army of angel like creatures; don't you think that was Ballos' doing as well? [his magic anyways]

Oh and at the end, what was that?? If you want to take my theory that the walls closing in, were closing in on Ballos. That the millions of skulls, skeletons from the ground; and that made up the wall were actually the people he killed at the kingdom... You could argue that Jenka made a prison from Ballos' own handywork. The dead... They could contain Ballos, wanting to drag him to hell or death; but the most they could do is seal him; but when Quote finally assualts Ballos; his power weak; the dead finally have their justice...

Something like that... Sorry if this is all very convulted sounding; I am writing this really late, but I felt compelled to try to respond lol

And it's kind of hinted at that if anyone had killed Ballos, the Core and the Red Flowers would have stopped working. If the Core had been keeping ballos' power separate, why wouldn't it still have Ballos' power after he dies?
I cannot begin to know how non-existant magic works ;) But, it seems very logical that if the source of the power Ballos were to be defeated his power would be gone as well...

But, Ballos isn't the one that's causing all the havoc; it's his wild evil magic. How does magic work? He allowed his magic to run wild... It sounds like it has a will of its own.

[Take Baldur's Gate God Bhall, when he dies his essence remains where it was spread to; so it could go either way, I don't know; it's up to your own opinion]

Maybe, the Core was created to utilize Ballos' magic to make the island float [even though it causes side effects like the flower?];
And then Misery wanted to try to do the same idea with the Demon Crown... a way to tap into his magic. But, Misery is not Jenka... assuming Jenka made the Core.

Maybe I can think about this later, too tired...

The Short Response!:

The facts that we Should agree upon and rely all of our theories on, are:
The Core affects the island's ability to float.
The Core affects the red flower/crystal.
The island stops falling after Ballos is defeated.

... I don't feel like I've answered you satisfactory; but tell me your reaction~
 
May 10, 2006 at 4:43 PM
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If we take magical power as something that is quantifiable (which we have been doing), that quantity is not neccessarily indicative of effort. I could easily imagine that Jenka could set her powers to seal Ballos, but still be able to go about her daily life without constantly holding her hands out and channeling a spell. My point earlier though was that if she needs all of her power to seal Ballos, that weakens her ability to use any of it for other means, making her have to rely on physical strength (which she has little of) to, for example, defend herself from Balrog.

It'd be something like building a dam, and then deciding you need a street. Do you take a chunk of concrete from the dam, or do you settle for a dirt road?

Regarding the Core, is there any other part of the game that links the Core with the red flowers besides Kazuma's statement that destroying it could return the Mimigas to normal?
 
May 10, 2006 at 7:04 PM
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Regarding the Core, is there any other part of the game that links the Core with the red flowers besides Kazuma's statement that destroying it could return the Mimigas to normal?
Here's all the evidence I can find:
Just the fact that Sue and Misery are returned to normal after the Undead Core battle....

Kazuma: You know, there's one other way one might return the Mimigas to their natural state.
Kazuma: You could destroy the island's core.
Kazuma: If you did that, however, the island would most likely crumble.
Kazuma: A dangerous choice, no?

Misery: Do you even know what this is?!
Curly: What?
Misery: Hmph. This is what I hate about robots.
Misery: This is the heart of the island!
Misery: If you stop it, the island will fall to the earth!
Misery: Is that your grand plan?
Misery: To take the island down with you in a blaze of glory?!
Misery: Fools!!

Booster: You see, this island floats in the sky by the power of a certain organism, and I've recently discovered its location.
Booster: This labyrinth.
Booster: The organism lives somewhere within this very labyrinth.
Booster: If one could destroy it, the island would cease to function.

I guess I was wrong when first assuming that the Core either did this or either did that. I think we can trust Kazuma and Misery, because Sue and Misery change back to normal.
 
May 10, 2006 at 7:24 PM
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X-Calibar said:
Here's all the evidence I can find:
Just the fact that Sue and Misery are returned to normal after the Undead Core battle....

Without Kazuma's statement, one could believe that was just simply due to defeating the Doctor (they weren't transformed through consuming the flower, but ultimately by the Doctor's use of the crown).

However, Kazuma's comment is a bit interesting. It's definitely something to think about.
 
May 11, 2006 at 10:40 AM
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Shmitz said:
Without Kazuma's statement, one could believe that was just simply due to defeating the Doctor (they weren't transformed through consuming the flower, but ultimately by the Doctor's use of the crown).

However, Kazuma's comment is a bit interesting. It's definitely something to think about.
yet that would tie in to my thoughts on the demon crown thread mainly that the gem in the crown is Ballos's eye

I cannot begin to know how non-existant magic works ;) But, it seems very logical that if the source of the power Ballos were to be defeated his power would be gone as well...

But, Ballos isn't the one that's causing all the havoc; it's his wild evil magic. How does magic work? He allowed his magic to run wild... It sounds like it has a will of its own.

[Take Baldur's Gate God Bhall, when he dies his essence remains where it was spread to; so it could go either way, I don't know; it's up to your own opinion]

Maybe, the Core was created to utilize Ballos' magic to make the island float [even though it causes side effects like the flower?];
And then Misery wanted to try to do the same idea with the Demon Crown... a way to tap into his magic. But, Misery is not Jenka... assuming Jenka made the Core.

Maybe I can think about this later, too tired...

The Short Response!:

The facts that we Should agree upon and rely all of our theories on, are:
The Core affects the island's ability to float.
The Core affects the red flower/crystal.
The island stops falling after Ballos is defeated.

... I don't feel like I've answered you satisfactory; but tell me your reaction~
1. when his magic ran wild ment his magic acted with out a consciousness to guide it at random it lashes out at anything or anyone(often caused be the magic-user being under extreme mental, physical & spiritual strain)

2. its bhaal not bhall(not i'm not a big d&d fan or anything but i got Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal)

3. the core could just eat magic and is feeding off Ballos, Misery & Jenka power or it could even be like a flood gate :D
 
May 11, 2006 at 11:39 AM
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God of Chaos said:
3. the core could just eat magic and is feeding off Ballos, Misery & Jenka power or it could even be like a flood gate ;)

I feel the Core is more like the capacitor array on a dam. It stores energy and distributes it throughout the island as needed.

Then, by that analogy, Jenka is the floodgate.
 
May 11, 2006 at 12:45 PM
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this could be my lack of sleep talking but what if the Mimigas are the descendants of the those who lived when ballos's magic went psico they got turned into them kinda like what happend to sue and whats-his-name the red demon could have even been one of ballos's children
 
Jun 9, 2006 at 2:35 AM
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Okay, breaking up the debate (although I have my opinion, I'm saving it for my prequel mod, so tough), I gotta ask:

How does Kazuma know so much about how to turn Mimigas normal anyway? He's had a Mimiga for a sister for, what, a year (or less)? I think he found an encyclopedia in one of the eggs (hey, Quote found a key and a missile...) and read it while waiting for Quote to show up?
And why doesn't he have it when we see him again? Simple, when Quote showed up and examined the computer, he startled Kazuma, and he (Kazuma) dropped the book off the Outer Wall. So, some poor guy down on the surface got an encyclopedia dropped on his or her head...
That's gotta hurt...
 
Jun 9, 2006 at 10:18 PM
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somehow I don't think thats what happaned most likely is that he was sent to study the ecology of the island and could the lsland have been flying before ballos's power ran wild of course theres not much to prove or disprove that
 
Jun 9, 2006 at 10:59 PM
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Man this game leaves questions unanswered like a soap opera! Will Quote ever learn about his father, how did Kazuma know about the Mimigas, and much others! I guess that is what mods are for!
 
Jun 10, 2006 at 7:24 PM
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Mods wont answer things in the correct way,They're not made from Pixel,I guess Pixel didnt want us to know about the robots mysteries,I wonder if there will be a sequel?That explains these mysteries and possibly the robots will be in their hometown,Which would be interesting.
 
Jun 10, 2006 at 7:33 PM
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I'm pretty sure Pixel has said he won't make a sequel.

And BTW, that last post was a joke. I just thought this thread needed some comic relief. Sorry if I made anyone mad.
 
Jun 10, 2006 at 8:46 PM
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I don't think it made anyone mad, but you did raise another question. Also I think from that height, the falling encyclopedia would kill anyone under it, kind of like dropping a penny off the CN tower could kill or fracture someone's skull.
 
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